Examples of Power Creep?

[Crothian]

I think you underestimate the sorcerer and overestimate the warmage.

The warmage, in fact, has a very limited range of spells. It is all "attack, attack, attack". With the proper selection of metamagic feats, the sorcerer has a very similar range to the warmage.

I agree. We have a warmage in our party and I am thankful he is there when we get into a battle. But the simple things that we want arcane magic to do like Detect Magic, he can't do. It wouldn't be so bad if we had a Bard or other arcane caster to pick up the slack but we don't. So, it really shows the limited nature of the class fast.

 

[Markn]

Merric

I may underestimate the sorceror, but most definately do not underestimate the warmage. I agree that his spells are all 'attack, attack, attack' and that is really all he can do. However most campaigns and I daresay the standard campaign, all deal with combat a good deal of the time. Sure he can't cast haste and fly and so forth but those spells are only as effective as the players they are cast upon. A hasted character only gains the benefit of the extra attack if he takes a full attack action. The movement and other aspects of the spell only play a minor part in the fight overall. Fly has no direct impact and is useless in dungeons. Bear in mind that the warmage can choose feats in addition to the free sudden feats he gets just as a sorceror can. I do agree that non combat situations are not fun for the warmage. He has nothing to do and nothing to do it with. Minor setback IMO.

As for threats that can't be blown up...could you provide an example or two? I would wager to say they are the exception and not the norm so the statement is not really valid.

To really put it in simplistic form. Anything the sorceror can do, the warmage can do better (almost everything anyways - he is unable to choose utility spells like fly, haste, etc)

 

[Markn]

Crothian

You are correct, the warmage is limited and is unable to do Detect Magic. 1 Level of wizard cancels all the penalties of being a warmage. He now has access to any items that a wizard has and can purchase a Detect Magic wand. I guess the saving grace is that not many races can do this without having a multiclass penalty but still...seeing the warmage in play is proof in the pudding so to speak....

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The warmage may overcome this in actual play, but in my experience, direct damage spells are by far the least useful in combat. Save or die spells (sleep at low levels, eventually working up to implosion) are the only serious offensive threat, and buff spells tend to be better even than those.

 

[Victim]

That's like saying the wizard can have all the benefits of being a warmage by carrying around dozens of attack scrolls and wands.

Warmage deficiencies:
Buff - Scry - Teleport tactics: the warmage fails all three. Well, Legion's Fireshield is pretty good, but kind of lonely by itself.

Defensive Magic: the warmage has Fireshield, better HP, and can wear armor. The normal arcanist has fireshield, stoneskin, False Life, Spell Turning, armor and shield bonus spells to make up for lack of normal armor (and stop magic missiles), Contingency, mirror image, resist elements, etc. The warmage's ability to take or avoid damage is inferior to a bard or rogue.

Debuffs or enemy crippling spells: Ray of Enfeeblement, Slow, Enervation, Confusion. These spells generally have no save or attack Will. Since many monsters have crap for Will saves but lots of HP, these spells can be very effective. Also, they tend to especially gimp certain enemies. If Trolls or Girallons are attacking at Claw instead of Claw, Claw, Bite, Rend (Claw, Claw), then they pose little threat to comparable characters; hitting 3 out of 4 with slow has a greater impact than hitting each for 1/3rd of their HP. On the bright side, the warmage does have the Waves of X line of spells.

Battlefield Control: Various Wall spells, Force Cage, Grease, Web, etc all deny areas to the enemy or split them into sub groups. The Warmage has few spells here (Stinking Cloud, Evard's, and some Prismatics), but they lack some of the better ones.

Detection: Not only scrying, but no Glitterdust, See Invisible, Moment of Prescience, Detect X, etc. In other words, have fun fighting Invisible people - especially since it's usually the wizard's job to notice those guys.

 

[MerricB]

You are correct, the warmage is limited and is unable to do Detect Magic. 1 Level of wizard cancels all the penalties of being a warmage.

Congratulations. You now have a character that gets fireball at _7th_ level.

Whee...

 

[beaver1024]

Even the idea that 3.5e is power crept from 3e isn't true. Witness the powering down of any options that gave bonuses to spell DCs. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Red Wizard, etc.

Cheers!

They really only nerfed arcane casters to unusability in 3.5. They powered divine casters up through the ionosphere in 3.5. Righteous Might? Holy Word? Blashphemy? Or what about the whole gamut of druid power ups just because druids are a pet class of one of the designers.

 

[Crothian]

Or what about the whole gamut of druid power ups just because druids are a pet class of one of the designers.

And we know this how? I do know Druids needed a bit of a boost from 3.0 the wildshape rules were confusing then and the class really wasn't that interesting. It is a little more interesting now, but my problem is it isn't a druid and not anything with the power of the class.

 

[beaver1024]

I find a lot of this funny. How can you have playtested anything from complete adventurer, unless you designed it? If I had a Scout in a campaign, it'd be level 1, for goodness sake.

Just because you're not the designer doesn't mean you can't test the system. In fact the worst person to test the mechanic is the designer. Not that it matters, clearly WoTC don't playtest their materials in any event.

It seems people are pulling combos from out their *** and adding in an anecdotal, if you use feat x(which requires 9 feats) with ability y(that requires you be a level 17 wizard, who gets only like 6 feats in its whole career that arent metamagic/item create) which doesnt hold water even at a casual glance. What are you DM's doing? Honestly. If Jack says to me, "He, I want to go 5 levels of Thief, 3 levels of barbarian, 10 levels of Frenzied Berserker and then 2 levels of mage for true strike and wraithstrike, not just me, but the whole gaming group would LAUGH HIM OUT THE DOOR. Not just is it stupid to the point of silly, its an insult to the DM's intelligence to ask. Lots of the feats and class abilities arent designed to work together because they are on polar opposite character types, and they shouldnt be on the same character at all.

Peer Pressure. Use it. Power Creep, as in everything getting bigger and better does NOT exist in 3.5. Those who say it does have never read Rifts supplements, or played Warhammer Fantasy Battles. There are inane combos that are grossly overpowered, mostly because they shouldnt exist together on the same character, and that is where you come in, with the little thing known as common sense. If only it were more common.

This is not true at all. Character concepts has absolutely nothing to do with power creep. Any weird combination of abilities can be justified as long as they don't break mechanical rules. Flavour "common sense" has nothing to do with it at all. What may be common sense in your campaign is brainless stupidity in others. Trying to say that there is no power creep in 3.5 just because power combinations don't fit some sort of arbritary "common sense" is like . . .

Political reference edited out. Keep politics off these boards, please. ~ Piratecat

 

[beaver1024]

And we know this how? I do know Druids needed a bit of a boost from 3.0 the wildshape rules were confusing then and the class really wasn't that interesting. It is a little more interesting now, but my problem is it isn't a druid and not anything with the power of the class.

Do you really need evidence of druid power creep? Natural spell? Legendary Ape? Giant Squid form? Things that put fighters to shame? Fire seeds? Things that put wizards to shame?