Excerpt: Economies [merged]

Maybe I just have good players/DMs, but what, exactly, is the big problem with letting players buy their own damned magical equipment with the money they've earned? This idea of "NO NO, THEY CAN ONLY HAVE WHAT THE DM GIVES THEM" is what spreads so much irritation for DMs in the first place, and it's why nobody wants to BE a DM, because there's a stigma of them always being power hungry.

Let the players play. Don't punish them for trying to make money which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the entire point of being an adventurer. And yes, purposefully giving them less money later on down the road IS punishing them. It's you saying "Nyeah nyeah, you're on my economic railroad, like it or not." And yes, it is railroading. When the DM decides that the players aren't mature enough to handle their own in game resources, you may as well just tell them in the first five minutes of the game exactly how the story goes, what they did, and how it ended.
 

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ProfessorCirno said:
Let the players play. Don't punish them for trying to make money which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the entire point of being an adventurer. And yes, purposefully giving them less money later on down the road IS punishing them. It's you saying "Nyeah nyeah, you're on my economic railroad, like it or not." And yes, it is railroading. When the DM decides that the players aren't mature enough to handle their own in game resources, you may as well just tell them in the first five minutes of the game exactly how the story goes, what they did, and how it ended.
Most players want to be challenged. They complain and get bored when monsters are too easy to kill. They want to use their cool new powers and they want to feel that they are useful.

If every combat they go into goes like this:
Player: I roll a 6 on my d20 to hit. That hits? Wow these monsters have really poor ACs. I do 35 damage.
DM: Alright, it dies.
Player: Really? In one hit? That was easy. Let's go find some real monsters.

then players will get bored. The goal is to challenge them at the right level. Not too hard to get them frustrated, not too easy that it is a cakewalk. If you give them too much money, eventually monsters will reach the cakewalk levels.

Sure, most players will tell you that they LOVE the feeling of being way too powerful for their level and knowing how quickly they can defeat monsters. Don't believe them. These same players will be the ones complaining in a couple sessions that the game is too boring. Plus, it is unlikely to be fun for you as a DM to continually come up with interesting encounters only to have them defeated without any real chance to shine. I know I hate rolling dice when I know the monsters as so far outmatched that they'll never win.

Being a DM isn't about being on a power trip. It is about having the responsibility to ensure the fun of everyone at the table. This means making sure no one feels that their character is too weak. It means making sure everyone has an equal chance to shine. It means making sure you are having fun running the encounters. It means coming up with an interesting storyline that entertains your players

And sometimes, to ensure everyone has fun for the long run, you have to tell some people no. Sometimes that means telling someone they can't buy an item, they can't have a certain feat, or they can't be a certain race. And other times it means keeping their gold value balanced any way you can. Whether that means limiting the gold in the future or coming up with reasons why they can't get more than 1/5th the gold when they sell an item, it is part of your responsibility. If you do it well, they'll never even notice and they'll just have a lot of fun.
 

While I would have no problem with giving people less reward in the future if they somehow circumvent the 20% resale price, I would also probably see if I could handle some of it in game. Suddenly itbecome sknown that this party has a large amount of money because they had a great deal on some rare items they sold. Sounds like the local thieves'guild might take an interest and try to steal some of it...
Or maybe other merchants will now only sell things to them at a higher price because they know the party is loaded...

The point is that you can keep the game balanced through in game mechanics as well as behind the scenes mechanics. The party sometimes through being inventive gets a lucky break, other times they won't and lose out on it. If in the end it averages out, it will feel like a part of a living breathing world, probably even more so than the actual gradual advancement...
 

ProfessorCirno said:
Maybe I just have good players/DMs, but what, exactly, is the big problem with letting players buy their own damned magical equipment with the money they've earned? This idea of "NO NO, THEY CAN ONLY HAVE WHAT THE DM GIVES THEM" is what spreads so much irritation for DMs in the first place, and it's why nobody wants to BE a DM, because there's a stigma of them always being power hungry.

Let the players play. Don't punish them for trying to make money which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the entire point of being an adventurer. And yes, purposefully giving them less money later on down the road IS punishing them. It's you saying "Nyeah nyeah, you're on my economic railroad, like it or not." And yes, it is railroading. When the DM decides that the players aren't mature enough to handle their own in game resources, you may as well just tell them in the first five minutes of the game exactly how the story goes, what they did, and how it ended.
While I sympathize entirely with your point about power-hungry DMs, the game's default reward structure is presumably balanced around the idea that PCs will suffer a "loss" of about 80% when selling a magic item. I'm sure it will be possible to adapt the game to a situation where the PCs suffer no loss for selling magic items, but make no mistake, the DM will have to adapt. The change could be as simple as giving the PCs 10% less treasure, or (something which could be more complex) increasing the level of challenge to suit the PC's higher power level. It is not a punishment - it is changing one default assumption (the rate at which the PCs earn treasure) to compensate for a change in another default assumption (the rate at which the PCs "lose" treasure).
 

ProfessorCirno said:
Maybe I just have good players/DMs, but what, exactly, is the big problem with letting players buy their own damned magical equipment with the money they've earned? This idea of "NO NO, THEY CAN ONLY HAVE WHAT THE DM GIVES THEM" is what spreads so much irritation for DMs in the first place, and it's why nobody wants to BE a DM, because there's a stigma of them always being power hungry.
:rolleyes: Players will try to abuse the system no matter what you do. Hence why DM's are seen as power hungry control freaks. They have to be to prevent the idiots from ruining the game.

Let the players play. Don't punish them for trying to make money which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the entire point of being an adventurer.
No, that's the point of "adventuring" in an mmo. In D&D, the point of being an adventurer is adventure. The stories they discover, the stories they're a part of, the stories thrust upon them unwillingly.

And yes, purposefully giving them less money later on down the road IS punishing them. It's you saying "Nyeah nyeah, you're on my economic railroad, like it or not." And yes, it is railroading.
So what? Railroading is great. It's awesome. As long as you're not a damned idiot and tell the players you're railroading them. Railroading is what keeps the campaign from being ruined by stupid decisions by stupid players.

When the DM decides that the players aren't mature enough to handle their own in game resources, you may as well just tell them in the first five minutes of the game exactly how the story goes, what they did, and how it ended.
Because they wouldn't play. That's why great dm's railroad their players without the players ever realizing it.
 

Aria Silverhands said:
:rolleyes: Players will try to abuse the system no matter what you do. Hence why DM's are seen as power hungry control freaks. They have to be to prevent the idiots from ruining the game.

No, that's the point of "adventuring" in an mmo. In D&D, the point of being an adventurer is adventure. The stories they discover, the stories they're a part of, the stories thrust upon them unwillingly.

So what? Railroading is great. It's awesome. As long as you're not a damned idiot and tell the players you're railroading them. Railroading is what keeps the campaign from being ruined by stupid decisions by stupid players.

Because they wouldn't play. That's why great dm's railroad their players without the players ever realizing it.

Maybe I'm just lucky, as I've never had any of those problems. That's not an issue with the game, that's an issue with your players.

Most players want to be challenged. They complain and get bored when monsters are too easy to kill. They want to use their cool new powers and they want to feel that they are useful.

If every combat they go into goes like this:
Player: I roll a 6 on my d20 to hit. That hits? Wow these monsters have really poor ACs. I do 35 damage.
DM: Alright, it dies.
Player: Really? In one hit? That was easy. Let's go find some real monsters.

then players will get bored. The goal is to challenge them at the right level. Not too hard to get them frustrated, not too easy that it is a cakewalk. If you give them too much money, eventually monsters will reach the cakewalk levels.

Sure, most players will tell you that they LOVE the feeling of being way too powerful for their level and knowing how quickly they can defeat monsters. Don't believe them. These same players will be the ones complaining in a couple sessions that the game is too boring. Plus, it is unlikely to be fun for you as a DM to continually come up with interesting encounters only to have them defeated without any real chance to shine. I know I hate rolling dice when I know the monsters as so far outmatched that they'll never win.

Being a DM isn't about being on a power trip. It is about having the responsibility to ensure the fun of everyone at the table. This means making sure no one feels that their character is too weak. It means making sure everyone has an equal chance to shine. It means making sure you are having fun running the encounters. It means coming up with an interesting storyline that entertains your players

And sometimes, to ensure everyone has fun for the long run, you have to tell some people no. Sometimes that means telling someone they can't buy an item, they can't have a certain feat, or they can't be a certain race. And other times it means keeping their gold value balanced any way you can. Whether that means limiting the gold in the future or coming up with reasons why they can't get more than 1/5th the gold when they sell an item, it is part of your responsibility. If you do it well, they'll never even notice and they'll just have a lot of fun.

Really, I've found the most effective way to provide a challenge is to think WAY outside the box. I've mentioned it a few times, but I once threw a freaking HUGE giant at the party at one point for storyline reasons. And it was killed almost entirely by one player, not because he had buffs and was overpowered out the wazoo, but because I didn't expect the paladin to put on the crappy belt of climbing and re-enact Shadow of the Colossus.

Side note - that paladin earned his Holy Avenger rip off.

I think the problem is, the players ARE going to notice they're getting ripped off the second they try to buy an item after selling one. As for controlling their items, we rarely use the Magical Walmart approach; if a player can give me a good and believable story as to how they're going to purchase the item they want, we'll roll with it. If they just say "I want a new sword of flaming awesomeness," no go. On the other hand, if they (and this is an example that happened) talk it over with the rogue, and the two of them tell me that the rogue got in touch with some old contacts and hooked the first player up with a disenfranchised wizard hoping to make a quick buck, I'll start going with it. And the best thing is, they're all but tripping over themselves to give me more ideas for plot hooks :D. Later on, that same wizard found himself much more powerful, and was feeling a bit irritable that he let his awesome sword go, and goes after the party. Or maybe I nudge the fighter while they rest at the inn and say "Hey, roll Listen." And of course, later, "You notice your sword is missing." Of course, I leave enough clues to allow them to look after it, while not so many that there's a big neon sign saying "ROGUE STOLE IT, MET WIZARD HERE."

I suppose the idea of taking control away from the players just doesn't seem right with me. The game isn't supposed to be about the DM playing the game by himself, nor is it about the players just dully responding to yes or no questions, followed by combat. Again, there's video games for that, and they do it better. You've got a group of people sitting around you - let them really get involved in it!
 


ProfessorCirno said:
Maybe I'm just lucky, as I've never had any of those problems. That's not an issue with the game, that's an issue with your players.
It's an issue with most players, apparently.

I suppose the idea of taking control away from the players just doesn't seem right with me. The game isn't supposed to be about the DM playing the game by himself, nor is it about the players just dully responding to yes or no questions, followed by combat. Again, there's video games for that, and they do it better. You've got a group of people sitting around you - let them really get involved in it!
I find that it's more interesting as a player to get involved with the DM in buying magical items, rather than just doing it by myself.
It seems much less interactive to have total control over my buying abilities. Not to mention less realistic.
 

Was anyone else disappointed this WASN'T about world-building economics, but instead about handing out loot? Sigh...

I mean, when I saw "Economics", I thought we'd be getting things like cost of daily life, ow much wealth exists in villages, where towns and cities get their income from, acres of farmland needed to support a city, and so on.

Seriously. Instead, it's loot&XP. Oh well...

On the plus side...

a)"Magic item shops" are still in, despite claims to the contrary. (There's the exact same "support" for Wal-Magic in 4e as there was in 3e -- a note in the DMG that magic items can be bought and sold and players are free to do so by default, though the DM can always rule otherwise.)

b)Yes, you still dump that ratty old +1 sword when the +2 sword came along. Sad for all those thinking D&D had become the game where you have one magic weapon that grows with you over your career.

So I get to do a little schadenfreude dance. Go me!

Lastly, some questions:
a)Who the hell EVER used random treasure tables? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? All treasure in my games is hand-placed and by strange coincidence fits the player's needs...
b)Treasure bundles? I guess I'm ahead of the curve...I jot down all the magic items and treasure I plan to hand out between levels X and Y, and then make sure it's scattered over the encounters.
 

Lizard said:
Was anyone else disappointed this WASN'T about world-building economics, but instead about handing out loot? Sigh...

I mean, when I saw "Economics", I thought we'd be getting things like cost of daily life, ow much wealth exists in villages, where towns and cities get their income from, acres of farmland needed to support a city, and so on.


To be honest, that sounds like 2nd Ed snooze-fest material to me, I'm so glad this article wasn't about how much grain the sample town of Bunky sells a year and what their profit margin is or what have you.
 

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