Excerpt: Economies [merged]

[Sir_Darien]

Nobody buys 'em seems like it would work.

Personally, I'm going to have no magic item shop of note (just the elixir place and a few possible items) and the merchant will buy items so they can be shipped halfway around the world to find someone to buy them, in a process that takes months. Ditto to buy anything of use.

I could also have their shop burn down, but the end result is they will feel cheated either way. If they are willing and able to pay 100% of the value of the item, it stands to reason (especially for heroic tier items) that other adventurers would be willing to do the same.

If they put effort and resources into attempting to market their devices to others like themselves, then how can you realistically just say that no one will purchase them. Bear in mind that my group plays in a traditional high-fantasy setting where there are other adventurers around with power comprable to the pcs up until the low teens in levels.

 

[MindWanderer]

Agreed.

This is the first major problem I've had with the preview material. I don't know what I'm going to do when my players start becoming merchants.

I can see them stockpiling gear until they get to a metropolis. Then setting up a store to sell their magic items at 80% and undercutting local merchants. I can also see them sending messengers out to all towns in the vicinity letting other adventurers know about their goods.

They've done stuff like this before just to make 75% off items in 3.5 and I cannot realistically think of a way to keep it from working.

The same way you keep them from resting after every encounter: a sense of urgency. Give them a quest where they won't have time to sit around for months while they wait for other adventurers to show up. Remember, adventurers are a rare breed, moreso as you go up in level. Even in a place like Sharn, with a huge population and lots of money, you're still in Eberron where high-level adventurers are extremely rare. Sure, your PCs could quit adventuring and go into business for themselves, but then they're not really playing the game, and months if not years of game time are going by. See the d20 Modern FAQ for a similar example dealing with resale glitches.

Like the travelling merchants mentioned in the article, your PCs could go out looking for buyers instead of waiting for buyers to come to them. This presents an elegant solution: attack them on the road, and give them no or little treasure. The wealth they should have earned for that encounter is covered by the profit they turn as merchants. You can also do this if they decide to set up shop in a city, although it's more contrived. Noncombat encounters (e.g. skill challenges) can cover this as well--any excuse to give out XP.

 

[TheArcane]

There's no contradiction there. Think of a Rolls Royce. They're extremely expensive, and there's not much demand for them, partly because they're extremely expensive.

If something is so far outside Person X's price range that he couldn't even imagine paying for it, he has no measurable demand for it, no matter how much he might want it.

But your new Royce doesn't lose 4/5 of its value right after you drive it for the first time. Theoretically you should be able to find a buyer who is willing to pay a lot, even for a second hand one. Selling items at 1/5 of their value stretches the common sense a little too much.

Regarding the rest of the preview, while I understand that these are just guidelines, I find them very dull and not interesting. First of all, I forsee player complaints that "they didn't get their 4 items for this level". Furthermore, what is the impact of exchanging one gold and potion parcel for another magic item? Or vice versa? What happened to potions other that healing? Again the question - what if the party defeats a villain NPC? What about his magic gear? Can he use the parcel that he's guarding? I hope all of these are addressed in the books...

 

[pawsplay]

I cannot believe the concept of an illiquid market is so hard to accept.

You made me look up big words.

Wikipedia has this to say:

A liquid asset has some or more of the following features. It can be sold (1) rapidly, (2) with minimal loss of value, (3) anytime within market hours.

Magic items certainly have (2), assuming we are talking about a legendary sword or some other durable artifact. I think (1) easily applies, assuming the items is of obvious utility to wealthy nobility, reclusive wizards, or military orders. (3) doesn't really apply. The only non-liquid attributes we seem to be facing are a lack of a regular forum or marketplace for the items.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm just going to give this update an "ugh."

I've always gone by "Give the players what you think is best for the moment."

There's been MANY situations where I thought about giving the party something, but one player would do something particularly impressive and warrant me changing the planned reward for something else.

Being a DM with good players is all about thinking on your feet and understanding that creative players will always find loopholes. Instead of trying to avoid the impossible, just go along with the flow and make sure everyone has a good time with it. Pre-set parcels diminishes that, in my view, and the DMs I've had have all felt the same. The game is no fun when everything is pre-set. They have video games for that.

On the bright side, I would love to see how the party reacts to the super low prices for selling, and super high prices for buying. I'm sure their devilish, evil, wicked minds would concoct something equal parts awe inspiring and horrifying to get around it.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Nobody buys 'em seems like it would work.

Personally, I'm going to have no magic item shop of note (just the elixir place and a few possible items) and the merchant will buy items so they can be shipped halfway around the world to find someone to buy them, in a process that takes months. Ditto to buy anything of use.

The only issue I see from reading the article is that unless you deliberately fudge the monster treasure, PCs wont be able to acquire specific items that are above their level.

 

[AZRogue]

Again the question - what if the party defeats a villain NPC? What about his magic gear? Can he use the parcel that he's guarding? I hope all of these are addressed in the books...

I would say that if it's a non-expendable magic item, like a sword or wand, then yes he can use it. If it's expendable, like a potion, I would let him drink the item but no matter how many times he used it there would still be one left in the parcel. The PCs may think he drank one or two of their potions but you will know the truth and balance will be preserved.

 

[pawsplay]

They do have a high resale value, hence the 10%-40% mark up. The problem is that you generally wont be able to find anyone who would be willing to pay that much. The highest you will generally be able to get is 20% from a merchant. The reason why he doesnt offer more is because he is taking a risk in that he may not be able to sell it again.

Very few magic items are going to be made in the first place that aren't of great utility. Further, he can always bank on selling it to another merchant. Permanent magic items don't lose any intrinsic value except from breakage. They're as good as real estate. Like I said, practically a commodity.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I'm just going to give this update an "ugh."

I've always gone by "Give the players what you think is best for the moment."

There's been MANY situations where I thought about giving the party something, but one player would do something particularly impressive and warrant me changing the planned reward for something else.

Being a DM with good players is all about thinking on your feet and understanding that creative players will always find loopholes. Instead of trying to avoid the impossible, just go along with the flow and make sure everyone has a good time with it. Pre-set parcels diminishes that, in my view, and the DMs I've had have all felt the same. The game is no fun when everything is pre-set. They have video games for that.

Then for you these tables aren't for you. These are for the many DMs who need a little bit of insurance that their handing out treasure at a balanced pace.

 

[Sir_Darien]

The same way you keep them from resting after every encounter: a sense of urgency. Give them a quest where they won't have time to sit around for months while they wait for other adventurers to show up. Remember, adventurers are a rare breed, moreso as you go up in level. Even in a place like Sharn, with a huge population and lots of money, you're still in Eberron where high-level adventurers are extremely rare. Sure, your PCs could quit adventuring and go into business for themselves, but then they're not really playing the game, and months if not years of game time are going by. See the d20 Modern FAQ for a similar example dealing with resale glitches.

Like the travelling merchants mentioned in the article, your PCs could go out looking for buyers instead of waiting for buyers to come to them. This presents an elegant solution: attack them on the road, and give them no or little treasure. The wealth they should have earned for that encounter is covered by the profit they turn as merchants. You can also do this if they decide to set up shop in a city, although it's more contrived.

The massive quest with no downtime detracts from other roleplaying aspects of the game. For example there is no time to build castles, make magic items, join / create organizations, etc. As for adventurer availability see my previos post.

And with the prescence of teleportation magic, there is no road to attack the pcs on. Now with the advent of 4e, teleporting all over may cost money. It doesn't in 3e.