Excerpt: Minions. Go forth mine minions! Bring havoc with your 1 hp [merged]

[Wormwood]

My take on minions- I still don't like them. Game-wise, I see where they are going with them. Game world-wise, they still don't fit. They almost work at level one, but at some point, they strike me as hitting a point of absurdity. You can get a more believable affect by just using a group of low level monsters.

Yeah, but groups of lower-level monsters are just not the same credible threat that level-appropriate minions are. Therefore, I'm willing to sacrifice that small amount of believability for more exciting game play.

 

[AllisterH]

That "no hijacks" thing went for everyone. Keep the thread focused on minions, not LotR, please!

Er, but wouldnt the use of minions be akin to how Aragorn et al treated the orcs? Isn;t that what the minions plot device supposed to be for? To model scenes from books and movies?

 

[HerntheHunted]

Random thought here...

Level+4 is supposed to be a potentially beatable, but most likely fatal encounter (to at least one party member, maybe more). Level-4 minions are still relevant in combat, if little more than an action-waster.

So what would happen if you had an encounter with 80 minions of party level-4? Would they still pose a threat? Could they even win?

Hard to say without knowing the powers the players could have on any given level (especially AoEs) but I´d think it would be hard to impossible. And probably Veeerrryyy long.

 

[el-remmen]

Yeah, I just don't dig the idea of "minions" for D&D. I can see them for HONG KONG ACTION THEATRE! and superhero type games, but not for D&D (and before anyone brings up movies or fantasy lit, I don't think of D&D as emulating them either - only D&D is D&D).

I can see how they might be useful from a book-keeping point of view - but I never had much trouble keeping track of lots of little things when most die in one hit - but those one or two that manage to survive a hit or two having their dramatic moment to worry the PCs.

 

[Voss]

Yeah, but groups of lower-level monsters are just not the same credible threat that level-appropriate minions are. Therefore, I'm willing to sacrifice that small amount of believability for more exciting game play.

But level appropriate minions *aren't* a credible threat, as far as I can tell. You need 15 or so kobold minions to even have a chance at taking down *a* first level character. Same with the legion devils. You need so many to line up and try to beat on someone that it doesn't strike me as exciting. Its more like hacking through underbrush with a machete. Its a tedious chore that you are required to do to get to some place interesting.

They're a minor tactical problem (clear them or get around them to attack the actual monsters) if you mix them a reasonable proportion with real monsters, but they aren't ever a threat.

A lower level monster will hit a bit less often, but its made up for with more damage- attacks that players will have to pay attention to, not just ignore- provoking opportunity attacks from minions really doesn't matter much, because their chance to hit isn't great, and the damage is so small that it doesn't actually matter.

 

[Naszir]

only D&D is D&D).

This I just don't get. Is Basic D&D D&D? Is AD&D D&D? Is anything that has houserules D&D? Is 2E or 3E D&D?

Minions seem to me to be a very good mechanic for those of us who do not want to divide our attention to a lot of little notekeeping and instead concentrate on the story and the actions of the players.

It provides something cinematic without being bogged down in the details of how many hit points orc #12 has.

It provides a way to have the players feel they can fight almost overwhelming odds yet still come through the battle.

 

[Piratecat]

Er, but wouldnt the use of minions be akin to how Aragorn et al treated the orcs? Isn;t that what the minions plot device supposed to be for? To model scenes from books and movies?

Discussing Gimli and Legolas cutting down orcs at Helm's Deep? Totally appropriate. Discussing whether LotR is "literature," or anime, or other discussion involving literary criticism? Belongs in another thread. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

 

[hong]

They're a minor tactical problem (clear them or get around them to attack the actual monsters) if you mix them a reasonable proportion with real monsters, but they aren't ever a threat.

Exactly. They're not meant to be a threat by themselves. They're a minor tactical problem, and an opportunity to showboat.

Why do ppl have this aversion to showboating? It is very strange.

 

[Knightlord]

But level appropriate minions *aren't* a credible threat, as far as I can tell. You need 15 or so kobold minions to even have a chance at taking down *a* first level character. Same with the legion devils. You need so many to line up and try to beat on someone that it doesn't strike me as exciting. Its more like hacking through underbrush with a machete. Its a tedious chore that you are required to do to get to some place interesting.

They're a minor tactical problem (clear them or get around them to attack the actual monsters) if you mix them a reasonable proportion with real monsters, but they aren't ever a threat.

A lower level monster will hit a bit less often, but its made up for with more damage- attacks that players will have to pay attention to, not just ignore- provoking opportunity attacks from minions really doesn't matter much, because their chance to hit isn't great, and the damage is so small that it doesn't actually matter.

But 1st level standard monsters almost *never* hit. At least the minions have a greater chance of actually hitting the PC's. And, as stated, minions are supposed to be just a *minor tactical problem*, but become a *major tactical problem* in large groups.

In short (and the following numbers are just hypothetical):
-1st level Kobold Standard Monster: Say +6 to hit and 1d8+2 damage vs. Level 10 Fighter's AC 26 and roughly 90HP. The Kobold needs a 20 to hit and does a max of 10 pts. Meh.

-9th level Kobold Minion: Say +12 to hit and 5 damage vs. Level 10 Fighter's AC 26 and roughly 90HP. Needs a 14 to hit and does auto 5 damage. Not great, but better than the Standard monster and can potentially be deadly when in groups.

 

[Cirex]

Xena usually one-hits minions. And it's so cool!

Minions are a great addition to 4e and although I'm planning to keep my players in the dark, I'll describe the non-minions enemies as "fearsome". That should be enough to tell them apart.