Excerpt: Minions. Go forth mine minions! Bring havoc with your 1 hp [merged]

Voss said:
Further, I don't like the fact that they are fully aware that minions fall apart if you take them too far out of level. To me, thats a sign that the subsystem doesn't work. It simply isn't internally coherent- the same XP values of kobold minions and a level 21 legion devil is almost a guaranteed win for the kobolds- that horde almost has to roll a 20 at some point, and at that point, they win. Same with players. They can take it, no matter the level, as long as they can keep attacking and hope for the big numbers.

Your example is in blatant defiance of the minion rules from the most basic level. I mean, they specifically state this is exactly how you are not supposed to use minions. A minion is not a special, insanely weak version of a monster, it is a story element.

There are a number of levels where D&D of all editions breaks down if you go completely out of your way to break the spirit and recommended use of the rules, but I'm not sure that makes for a valid argument because unlike a video-game, D&D is moderated by a human being that is hopefully smarter than a box full of tacks.

Despite all that, if you still hate Minions for how "meta-gamey" they are (which is an argument I can understand), they are exceptionally easy to remove as a DM.

I for one will try them in my first campaign where appropriate, and then make a decision based on how that works out. It may be the only appearence of minions in my games, or they may become a great new tool to make use of. Just going to have to wait and see how my players react to them.
 

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Naszir said:
This I just don't get. Is Basic D&D D&D? Is AD&D D&D? Is anything that has houserules D&D? Is 2E or 3E D&D?

Huh? I have been very vocal here over the years that to me "It is ALL D&D."

I guess I could have been clearer and said ". . . D&D to me."

I said only "D&D is D&D" I only meant that I am not looking for D&D to emulate any other form of fantasy-based entertainment.

So yeah, I was not trying to say that 4E is not D&D, or that having minions makes something not D&D.
 

Hm. I always thought it was self-evident that D&D existing in a hermetically sealed bubble, free from influences from the outside world, was a bad thing.
 

I really really like the new minion rules. My players and I are big fans of the concept of huge fights against dozens of foes. In play, those kinds of fights usually ended up being disappointments. As a DM, I ended up doing way too much accounting keeping track of hit points for mooks that had a 5% chance of hitting the players. The players didn't have much fun because they just got to watch me play the, "Was this one hit? How about this one?" game.

I love the ease of use implied by the new rules and can't wait to try them out. I just need to adjust my thinking around the concept of minions as speed bumps/semi-credible threats on the way to the main action.

I can't wait to see the looks on my players faces when I throw a dozen or so monsters at them at first level! They're gonna freak.
 

hong said:
Hm. I always thought it was self-evident that D&D existing in a hermetically sealed bubble, free from influences from the outside world, was a bad thing.

Maybe I should start a separate thread on this issue in General, because I don't want to hijack this thread (I'll see if I have time to do so later - or someone else can do it) - but I see a difference between influence and emulation. Lots of movies and books influence my campaigns/adventures, I am just not trying to emulate them.
 

This all depends on the game environment. Take minions in Feng Shui. The rules there are, in short, that all minions die if you hit them for more than 5 damage, but a hit for less than 5 damage is not tracked. So you can hit them indefinitely at 4 damage per hit, but only once for 5+. This works for Feng Shui because most characters hit for way more than 5 damage, so the realism breakage that would occur if you smacked a minion 12 times for 4 damage each (enough to kill a major named character) is very unlikely to happen.

Regarding these minion rules, if level 21 characters are regularly throwing around 1 damage attacks, then minions won't work so well. But if level 21 characters rarely or never throw 1 damage attacks, then everything is fine. As long as the typical attack damage is high enough that is plausible that it would kill a minion, there isn't a problem.

So... let me think about what's in the game.

Basic attacking follows a 1[W]+Stat progression, with a boost at epic level. I don't think there will be a problem there, except possibly if you end up with a wizard knifing a level 26 minion with a nonmagical dagger or something. But since wizards have at will magic that does way more damage than their crappy dagger powered by a strength score of 8, I don't think this will be a noticeable problem.

Area of effect powers don't look to be a problem, because they tend to do significant damage. At will area of effects like Scorching Burst already don't do any damage on a miss. Same with Burning Hands. Its only daily powers like Acid Arrow that do half damage on a miss, at least so far. This could bug people, but I doubt it will come up often, since Wizards have better options for killing weak foes. If it does come up, I'll DM around it. If a Wizard wants to use a daily power to waste one minion, I may just let it happen. Why not?

Attacks that do only [Ability Score damage] could be an issue, but I don't think they will based on what I know at the moment. This would be stuff like Cleave or Reaping Strike. This is probably the most dangerous territory, because at least hypothetically someone could take Cleave and then never increase their strength score above a +2 or something. But that would be moronic for a Fighter, so I'm figuring it won't happen. At level 21, I expect most Fighters will have strength bonuses of around +6 or more, due to the rate at which ability scores increase. Reaping Strike is a little tougher, since letting minions die to it violates the "minions don't die on a miss" rule. This puts us in the Feng Shui Minion territory, where you can Reaping Strike a minion indefinitely for 4 damage, but only connect once for 5. I may adjust that slightly, so that if you miss a minion with Reaping Strike more than once or twice, it eventually dies. That will be an on-the-fly adjustment at most, though.

Combat involving vastly divergent power levels might be a concern, but probably won't. The secret to not having level 1 PCs beat up level 21 minions is to not have them meet. That works for me. If the PCs party involved several level 15 characters and a single level 3 character, that might create problems, but honestly that's already a problem. And if they have a low level NPC trailing along with them, well, I'll just ad lib the NPCs combat. I always did in the past for non combat relevant NPCs.

Low level items saved up until higher levels. Lets say that at level 1, you buy a flask of burning oil that does 1d8 damage. At level 30 you throw it at a bunch of minions, because you haven't used it yet and you never took it off your character sheet. It might bug me if PCs started doing this. Since the damage in this type of item is based on the item, not the character (at least in 3e, we don't know in 4e) its possible for level 30 PCs to bring level 1 guns to a level 30 fight. It would bug me if doing this to clear out minions became commonplace. That's about the biggest criticism I've got, though.
 

hong said:
Exactly. They're not meant to be a threat by themselves. They're a minor tactical problem, and an opportunity to showboat.

Why do ppl have this aversion to showboating? It is very strange.
What I don't get is why people have an aversion to admitting that all monsters, regardless of minion status, are tactical problems, story elements, and opportunities to fight stuff.
 

I'm really looking forward to minions in play - when I started telling people about a little 4e playtest that I did with around 30 or 40 dead monsters in a couple of hours the response tended to "At first level?!"

Big fights with lots of enemies seem inherently more fun to me that small groups. These rules make it possible to do this without getting too bogged down in monsters that have no chance of seriously impacting the battlefield, nor of seriously hurting the PC's.

It also allows the PC's to look good, for villains to sacrifice their minions to slow the PC's down even if they know it isn't likely to actually stop them and...well, frankly, I love the idea.

Oh, and zombie hordes. Can't get enough of them zombie hordes.
 

You could change "minions die from a hit that does 1+ hp" to "minions die from a hit that does X+ hp", where X increases with level. That way a kobold is like straw, but a legion devil could withstand lots of little hits.
 

I think the concept of minions is going to quickly be made irrelevant as PCs keep an area effect damage spell/power (however low level) in reserve for the end encounter.

Presto! All minions removed from the board.

Watch how quickly PCs adapt to counter the concept of minions...
 

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