Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Green Knight]

I'm not so sure even that will make the "deep multiclasser" happy. This is what I expect to see from the Paragon Multiclassing.

• 11th: Multiclass Class’ feature – Only way to gain a class feature power of a second class (such as Channel Divinity, First Strike, etc.).
• 11th: Multiclass Class’ At-Will feature -- Only way to gain an at-will class feature Powers of a second class (such as Eyebite, Deft Strike, etc.). replaces the Paragon Path's Action Point boost.
• 11th: Multiclass Class’ encounter power
• 12th: Multiclass Class’ utility power
• 16th: Multiclass Class’ feature – Only way to gain a 2nd class feature power of a second class.
• 20th: Multiclass Class’ daily power

We also don't know if a Paragon Path's powers will be more powerful than a class' powers. If they are roughly equivalent, the only thing I suspect you will lose out on is the Action Point Boost. However, if the Paragon Path powers are more powerful than 'standard' powers, then you are losing the option of more power for more versatility.

Don't see why that shouldn't make the deep multiclasser happy (Unless you're not counting the four multiclass Feats). Assuming that's how it works, then you've got a character who's pretty much 50/50 in his class abilities. A 20th-level Fighter/Wizard with that (and the four Feats) would look like this (F for Fighter Power, W for Wizard Power).

AT-WILL POWERS: F, F, W
ENCOUNTER POWERS: F, F, W, W, W (At-Will Power)
DAILY POWERS: F, F, W, W
UTILITY POWERS: F, F, F, W, W
CLASS FEATURES: All Fighter Class Features + 2 Wizard Class Features

That's about as 50/50 as they come.

 

[Ondo]

They said all along that the Fighter/Wizard GISH was going to be a viable option. This hasn't really been true with what we have seen in the Multiclass rules to date, and in fact apparently WotC agreed in that they already wrote a Hybrid Fighter/Wizard - the Swordmage.

Actually, they've specifically stated that the Swordmage is not a gish.

 

[vagabundo]

This kind of dabbling will satisfy about 80% of people who want a bit of spice to their character class of choice.

Who wants to bet that a more involved (complicatged) system will be included as an option for the other 20% in the PHBII?

Going this route helps avoid horrible mechanics like Arcane Spell Failure for amour. We dont need it now. Serious, I hope it is gone gone.

 

[katahn]

The 4th Edition design had three primary goals for multiclassing:
1. Design the classes, make them cool, then force multiclassing to play nice with them.
2. Institute controls to prevent abusive combinations.
3. Institute controls to make every combination as playable as possible.

And yeah, I'm going to comment on this:So balancing something is more important than making it usable? Balance is great, but it should be secondary to fun and usability - there's no point balancing something that nobody wants to play.

Three primary goals does not imply that the goal listed first was more important than the goal listed second; or that the second goal was more important than the third. It simply means that multiclassing had three requirements in their mind and what those requirements were. It is a mistake to infer a specific order of importance in them IMHO.

 

[Khaalis]

Actually, they've specifically stated that the Swordmage is not a gish.

I believe they only use this wording because it is not a Gish as defined by 3X (a character with near full to full BAB and 9th level spells). Everything we have heard about the Swordmage sounds more gish to me than a Fighter with 4 feats dumped into learning a few wizard tricks.

Its an Arcane defender.
It uses magic to fight better.
It uses spells of armoring and protection instead of wearing heavy armor.
They're defenders, and they need hit points and AC comparable to fighters, and get there by using persistent magic effects.
They use combat-focused "immediate" spells and "move" spells (such as short-range teleports and transpositions, as well as instant shield-like effects, and a short-duration, self-only strength spell, and one that wreathes a sword in magical flames).

Overall, sounds very gish to me, since this is the kind of spells a gish specialized with in 3X anyway.

 

[Green Knight]

I believe they only use this wording because it is not a Gish as defined by 3X (a character with near full to full BAB and 9th level spells). Everything we have heard about the Swordmage sounds more gish to me than a Fighter with 4 feats dumped into learning a few wizard tricks.

Its an Arcane defender.
It uses magic to fight better.
It uses spells of armoring and protection instead of wearing heavy armor.
They're defenders, and they need hit points and AC comparable to fighters, and get there by using persistent magic effects.
They use combat-focused "immediate" spells and "move" spells (such as short-range teleports and transpositions, as well as instant shield-like effects, and a short-duration, self-only strength spell, and one that wreathes a sword in magical flames).

Overall, sounds very gish to me, since this is the kind of spells a gish specialized with in 3X anyway.

I'm thinking you can create a pretty nice character by multiclassing Swordmage with Wizard. Your base Swordmage class would give you spells and magical abilities that beef you up in hand-to-hand, while your multiclassed Wizard abilities would give you some long-range spells to better round out your character. I was already interested in playing the Swordmage, before, but I think I'm gonna try that combo out.

 

[Khaalis]

I'm thinking you can create a pretty nice character by multiclassing Swordmage with Wizard. Your base Swordmage class would give you spells and magical abilities that beef you up in hand-to-hand, while your multiclassed Wizard abilities would give you some long-range spells to better round out your character. I was already interested in playing the Swordmage, before, but I think I'm gonna try that combo out.

It will also likely be safe to assume that INT and STR are the primary stats for the Swordmage also making it synergistic. At least I hope it works out that way. This does however, go back to the point of multiclasses working best within their own power source, reducing the need for MAD.

 

[TheLordWinter]

The current assumption is the half-elf only gets a power and not a class feature for the racial ability.

Sorry if this already was posted (it's a long thread) but we know Prime Shot is a Ranger power. The fact that the Half-Elf Warlock has both Prime Shot and Ray of Frost would seem to raise some questions - particularly since the Warrior of the Wild grants Hunter's Quarry and not Prime Shot. Could be that the Half-Elf is a "good multiclasser" because they automatically get both an additional power and also an additional class feature in addition to any other multiclassing benefits.

 

[Vael]

Here's my question: we know humans get a bonus at-will power at first level. If they take a multiclass feat at first level, can they choose that bonus at-will from the other class?

 

[Shazman]

Hmnn.

I wonder how people are going to take only being able to "take" two classes.

Not too well. First, you get pigeonholed into a combat role, and now you are limited to acquiring a few powers from one other class. Their "solution" to the multiclassing "problem" was to basically eliminate multiclassing. 4E is a major kick in the pants to diversity and customization. One more reason not to switch.