Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Cadfan]

You know, in all my years of DMing 3e, I never once saw a player create a character with exactly half levels in wizard, and half levels in fighter.

Except at maybe level 4, when they were aiming for a PRC.

So... explain to me why its bad to have to go to a 3rd class like Spellblade or whatever its called to get your fighter/wizard fix.

 

[Andor]

My hat's off to anyone who actually slogged through this, I certainly didn't. ^^

The feat cost of swapping powers seems fair to me. For a start 4e feats seem generally weaker than 3e feats, so it's a smaller cost than percieved. Secondly paying a small price in power for flexibility is reasonable, especially given the narrow focus of 4e classes. Thirdly no one is holding a crossbow to your head and making anyone multi-class, if you'd rather have the feat do so. Lastly as Mneme points out the base multi-classing feat is very powerful by what we've seen of the feat standards for 4e. It duplicates the skill training feat, then adds a power on top of that, then gives you more paragon path options on top of that. Since you've already gotten a 3 for 1 from the base multi-classing feat, the latter feat costs are basically freebies.

 

[Iron Sky]

This thread is amazing, because it seems like 90% of the posters here are acting as if 1 and 2E never happened. Personally, 90% of my "time /played" in AD&D was in 2E (or 1E), and I loved the multiclassing system there, and I don't think it "broke the game" (perhaps people disagree).

To be fair, some of us have never played 1 or 2E(though I have played the latter). Heck, some of us here didn't even exist when 1 or 2E came out...

I've been roleplaying since I was 12, starting with the "latest and greatest" DnD product at the time: 2nd Edition AD&D. I've never even seen an older version of DnD.

So, if we don't mention it, it's because many of the posters here probably have never played the systems or, like me with 2nd Edition, never played more than 1 or 2 campaigns with them. In my 1-2 2nd AD&D campaigns I ran back in the day, out of about 30-35 characters people made and played, not one was dual/multi-class that I can remember.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

That shows nothing whatsoever about multiclassing. The entire exercise is predicated solely on one monster. Pun-pun isn't the result of a horribly broken multi-class system, just one poorly thought out ability of an incredibly rare monster that only really exists in one campaign setting.

It was an extreme example, I'll certainly grant you that. My point remains the same; multiclassing in 3e was not perfect. It was (and I'd argue still is) the most robust multiclassing system we have in DnD. However, it was prone to wonky results. Its freedom allowed cherry-picking and wonky results like pun-pun. It didn't work well for non-casters. Most of the classes in the PHB are spellcasters, so multiclassing hurts most of the core classes. There were entire PrCs were constructed in order to bandaid certain concepts (fighter/wizard, cleric/wizard, etc.)

4e has made a point of creating strong, tightly focused classes. I think they've done this well. As a result, multi-classing was not a priority for them and got pushed to the side. It leaves something to be desired for many people. (I may or may not be in this camp... haven't completely decided). However, I think the devs ignored multiclassing because each implementation has presented its own strange, sometimes detrimental problems. Multiclassing actually takes away from a strong class-based system, in that it puts too much focus on getting the most out of multiple classes, rather than just one.

If one is building a class based system, why dilute that system rather than strengthen it? It seems to me that if one wants a "multiclass character," one is better off looking at classless systems that allow a much different kind of advancement.

 

[Dausuul]

Wow, I can take a single feat in 3.5 that lets my 18th level fighter cast Meteor Swarm? Awesome! That seems much better than Dodge.

Actually... that sounds like a really good idea. I would totally implement something like that in my next 3.X game, if I intended to run another 3.X game.

Dabble in Wizardry [General]
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: You gain a single spell slot with level equal to one-half your character level, minus one (maximum 9). You may use that slot to prepare and cast an arcane spell as a wizard of level equal to your character level.
Whenever you reach a new even-numbered level, the level of this spell slot increases accordingly.
You are subject to all normal restrictions on casting, including arcane failure chance, except that low Intelligence does not prevent you from casting these spells. You must keep a spellbook. You do not gain additional spell slots for high Intelligence.
Special: You can take Dabble in Wizardry multiple times. Each time, you gain another spell slot.

Dabble in Sorcery[General]
Prerequisite: Cha 13
Benefit: You gain a single spell slot with level equal to one-half your character level, minus one (maximum 9). You also learn one sorceror/wizard spell of the same level or less. You may spontaneously cast that spell as a sorceror of level equal to your character level.
Whenever you reach a new even-numbered level, the level of this spell slot increases accordingly. In addition, you may exchange the learned spell for a different one, whose level does not exceed one-half your character level, minus one (for example, upon reaching 8th level, you may exchange summon monster II for summon monster III).
You are subject to all normal restrictions on casting, including arcane failure chance, except that low Charisma does not prevent you from casting these spells. You do not gain additional spell slots for high Charisma.
Special: You can take Dabble in Sorcery multiple times. Each time, you may choose either to gain another spell slot or to learn another spell (but not both).

Dabble in Divinity[General]
Prerequisite: Wis 13
Benefit: You gain a single spell slot with level equal to one-half your character level, minus one (maximum 9). You may use that slot to prepare and cast a cleric spell as a cleric of level equal to your character level.
Whenever you reach a new even-numbered level, the level of this spell slot increases accordingly.
You are subject to all normal restrictions on casting, except that low Wisdom does not prevent you from casting these spells. You do not gain additional spell slots for high Wisdom.
Special: You can take Dabble in Divinity multiple times. Each time, you gain another spell slot.

Dabble in Druidry[General]
Prerequisite: Wis 13
Benefit: You gain a single spell slot with level equal to one-half your character level, minus one (maximum 9). You may use that slot to prepare and cast a druid spell as a druid of level equal to your character level.
Whenever you reach a new even-numbered level, the level of this spell slot increases accordingly.
You are subject to all normal restrictions on casting, except that low Wisdom does not prevent you from casting these spells. You do not gain additional spell slots for high Wisdom.
Special: You can take Dabble in Druidry multiple times. Each time, you gain another spell slot.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

What some people seem to want is to be as good a fighter as a single-classed fighter, and as good at being a wizard as a single-classed wizard. This is blatantly, and categorically, utter munchkin crap. You shouldn't be able to replace two characters.

I don't often agree with Mr. Snow, but I had to say: Thank God for you.

I have been ranting about this for quite a while now when the subject of multi-classing comes up. Every time someone says how badly Class X and Class Y combine, I was almost at the point of tearing out my hair. And I have precious little to tear out.

With apologies to Eric's Grandmother, no freaking crap*!! Multi-classed characters were always the backup guys. If you wanted to be the sword guy (or gal) and Cuisinart everything in your path, you play the Fighter. If you wanted to be the Ultimate Wielder of Awesome Arcane Power, you play the Wizard. The Fighter/Wizard doesn't get all that cool stuff, because you are splitting your attention between two classes. You get penalized for not specializing.

And now, taking a few powers and a skill from another class is like manna from heaven. This time around, it seems to make sense that you are taking these other powers to provide backup for the main character. That is always what multi-classing was for.

Ok, we can go back to disagreeing now.



*replace words as necessary to get the full meaning of my frustration

 

[JohnSnow]

I agree with most things that you said. A multiclass should not be as good as the main class in doing the things that they do (A fighter who sticks to melee focused feats will rock something fierce melee-style as opposed to a gish who can fight and cast). If there are feats that expand the features available, like your example of cantrips, that'd be rockin' sweet. I tried to examine the table as if it was the whole picture, but leaving room for it not being so. If there are more feats to help a person pick up aspects of other classes, then it'll work exactly how I hope and I'll be thrilled. If what we have is pretty much the extent of multi-classing then I think a lot of character concepts won't be able to be fulfilled.

I'm guardedly optimistic, but very much hoping that you are correct.

Ummm...I may have something that will interest you greatly. One of the playtest characters, Erais the Sunlord, had the following feat listed on his character sheet - Channel Divinity - Power of Amaunator (see back). The back read as follows:

Channel Divinity - Power of Amaunator Feat Power
Your prayer to Amaunator creates a white-hot surge of radiance.

Encounter • Divine, Radiant
Special: You can use divine fortune, power of Amaunator, or turn undead once per encounter, but only one of them per encounter.
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You hit an enemy with a power with the radiant keyword.
Effect: Your power deals an extra 1d10 radiant damage to all targets hit by the power used. If a power deals half damage on a miss, you deal half of the extra damage as well.

I am assuming this is a cleric feat. I am equally assuming that it's entirely possible that there might be cleric feats for divine fortune and turn undead. Of course, those are feats only available to clerics. Except that the article on multiclassing says, specifically:

A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths. For example, a character who takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite.

I imagine that feats exist to deepen your character concept, or (by multiclassing) broaden it.

I'm starting to think this may turn out a lot cooler than some people think at the moment.

 

[WhatGravitas]

And now, taking a few powers and a skill from another class is like manna from heaven. This time around, it seems to make sense that you are taking these other powers to provide backup for the main character. That is always what multi-classing was for.

Ok, we can go back to disagreeing now.

Yep, I have to agree with you for once - multiclassing is definitively no longer a "build option" to improve your character beyond that what a single class character offers. And hence the dismay of people who had fun building their character.

The new "multiclassing" is more of a character concept option - to show that a character has picked up new stuff, like the fighter/wizard OR the wizard/fighter. And on the first glance, it does that pretty well - giving you the ability to play a character concept that doesn't fit into a single class. And that from the 1st level!

For me, that's a success.

EDIT: Also: There's retconning. If you're putting all your feats into your multiclassing efforts and pick up the paragon path, you'll probably get pretty close to a 50/50 split in your powers, ask your DM and build your character as the other class with your original class as picked up class. Perhaps this is even formalized in the form of retraining.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Caliber]

Well, the tumble example was fairly weak on my part, and you have provided a much clearer example that doesn't make the multiclassing look so bad. Still, it requires several feats to get even the rudimentary aspects right of the rogue - tumbling, sneak attack, combat advantage, and then I'm not sure how this even goes with the Fighter as a defender who now has to wield a light blade and likely light armor. But, you gave a good example. It doesn't look so bad. Thanks!

Pinotage

Glad I could help out. I'd suggest there may be feats to help out with those weapon/armor restrictions as well, but I'm veering pretty far into simple conjecture at this point ....

 

[am181d]

The problem though is that isn't balanced. Players are going to naturally chose powers which benefit them the most, while harming them the least. The strength of a cleric is that they have a lot of healing and buff spells, but a weaker selection of overt attack spells. A wizard is going to have the opposite problem. Allowing a class access to both makes a character who can heal/buff AND sling damage, which is overpowered. The only solution to this is to either reduce the effectiveness of both aspects (make the class unable to access high level healing or damage spells) or reduce the effectiveness of one. Wanting a character that is any kind of competent in two areas (especially when the two original areas are traditionally weaknesses for either original class) is, as JohnSnow says, utter munchkin crap.

If the powers are balanced correctly, then a character who has 50% wizard powers and 50% cleric powers is not unbalanced. (This is probably a gross simplification, but as a general principle, I think it holds.)