Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

Kwalish Kid said:
Oooh, let me! Let me!

In the new system, you can't multiclass and make use of the same amount of feats that everyone else can.

Am I right?

So what's new? In 3.5 you usually had to spend a feat or two to make a multiclass work Multiclassed spellcaster pretty much had to take Practised Spellcaster. Multiclassed fighters would take feats to offset lost hit points and BAB, and so on. If you were multiclassing into a Prestige class, chances were that you'd taken a feat you really didn't want just to qualify for the class, not to mention putting points into skills you otherwise would have avoided.

And (we expect) in 3.5 you had less feats, so each feat spent was a bigger opportunity cost. Skill points were even worse, since most skills needed to be max rank to be reliable.
 

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Whew!

I made it! :cool:

It only took several hours over the last couple days to read through everything, just in time for the next preview! ;)

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, especially to WotC_Miko for sharing what she's able to at this time. It's been a very interesting read and has covered a great deal of speculative ground.

My vote is on the plus side with some reservations, where I think most people are at given what's been shared and how much more there is to the system overall. Thinking over the last few characters I've built as NPCs for my game, either villains or extras, and back to characters I played a few years ago, I think this system will work in most cases. It will likely certainly have some suboptimal combinations, but already I believe it's head & shoulders above what 3E could do. I think the designers and developers at WotC were just as unhappy with many of the combinations in 3E as I and those I've gamed with were, and took all of that to heart with what they've put together for 4E.

Developing a good concept at level 1 will help one make good use of these rules, and how they're acquired over time and with the retraining allowed makes it possible to dynamically change and evolve that concept as the game progresses That is something I'm looking really forward to test out on both sides of the DM screen! :D
 

Lizard said:
Oh well, it's 20 pages in, and I might as well comment.

I'm glad I waited, since my first comments would have been based on a misunderstanding of the rules -- I thought you could only get three powers, max, from the second class, which would have been t3h suxx0r. But it seems you can get about 1/3rd of your powers from the second class (if you spend all your feats on them), which is pretty good. It's not 50/50, obviously, but it does let you do a lot.

Given the feats we've seen, powers seem like a better choice. Especially since there's no tiers or levels or prequisites. I'm trying to see why EVERYONE won't multiclass in 4e. Take the novice feat at first level, grab some Cool Bennies (more than I think you'd get for a feat), then wait until that cool power that synergizes perfectly comes along. Every fighter can toss a Fireball to weaken the enemy before closing with them or cleaning out minions. Actually, it seems spellcasters will be less likely to multiclass, as it's more useful for a fighter (who gives up no hit points or save bonuses) to gain some area-effect spells than it is for a wizard (who GAINS no hit points or ability to use armor, etc) to get some trivial extra trick he can do with his staff -- which he shouldn't be wielding in melee anyway if everyone else is doing their job right. Indeed, I think "two feats for a nuke" is a tradeoff every melee class will want to make -- especially since it's not a permanent choice and you can swap out powers any time you level. Just taking the training feat so you always have the option to grab cool powers strikes me as no-brainer. Wizards and Warlocks synergize nicely, too.
That's.... that's about what I was thinking....

Damn, what is the world coming too?
Lizard said:
Have we seen how 'multiclassing instead of paragon' is going to work yet?
Instead of? No, although just taking your Paragon Path from one appropriate your "secondary class" looks like it would work pretty well. It is pretty annoying the PP article said "refer to multiclassing" and the MCing article said "refer to PPs".
Lizard said:
It's a long step from the 'build your own class' model of 3x, but it seems to work within the 4e paradigm of strictly defined roles and niche protection uber alles. The one-class-limit seems to be a "We admit we couldn't get this working right but the deadline is due" fix, a limitation which has no in-game logic at all. If Joe Fighter can grab wizard training at 12th level, why can't he also grab ranger training at 14th? Hell, if he can drop powers, why can't he drop Wizard and pick up Ranger? If multiclassing was a choice you had to make at first level -- representing childhood training or whatever -- the one class limit would make sense.
Well, you can retrain feats, so if you've only taken feats you can retrain those out, but other than that, yeah, I guess.
 

Mirtek said:
Which is a quote about something that was true in earlier editions (in this case from 2006 and is one of the stated goals of 4e to get away from (to make the 4 martial or 4 arcane, ... party viable)
You have good eyes but, yes, I did know that it was a 2006 article. Wizards of the Coast was secretly working on 4th edition in 2006. The continual reference to the four party roles was R&D's way of adjusting D&D players to a crucial fact that would be even more crucial in 4th edition (not less so). A stated goal of 4th edition was to explicitly acknowledge the need for each of four roles in parties and to provide more than one choice (see Warlord as an alternative to Cleric).
 

Mokona said:
You have good eyes but, yes, I did know that it was a 2006 article. Wizards of the Coast was secretly working on 4th edition in 2006. The continual reference to the four party roles was R&D's way of adjusting D&D players to a crucial fact that would be even more crucial in 4th edition (not less so). A stated goal of 4th edition was to explicitly acknowledge the need for each of four roles in parties and to provide more than one choice (see Warlord as an alternative to Cleric).
This is not the case. Mike Mearls has specifically stated that it is possible to run an all-Martial campaign with no controllers. You may have problems with minion swarms, but that's very much in-genre for no-magic campaigns. A four-role party is preferable for most situations, and it's the baseline assumption which WotC operates on, but at absolutely no point have they declared "It is more important to have a rounded party in 4e than in 3e". I think it entirely unjustifiable to claim they've said so.
 

Whoa! I posted earlier in this thread, but the new posts were out pacing my ability to keep up, and I hate to sound like an idiot by repeating something. I have a wife, a child, and I am in medical school, and I still made it through all those posts! Shows how messed up my priorities are ;) . All I can say is that the more I read about it, the better I feel. Me likey.

The posts by playtesters have really helped to solidify my opinion about this. Even after Ari showed less that an infallible knowledge of the rules with the human extra at-will thing. ;)

This is going to be the best RPG yet. My previous simulationist predilections have been grown out of, the gamist elements seem perfect, narrativism has been boosted, and all of my character concepts seem not only possible but not even sub-optimal. And Vancian casting was beat down like it should have been ages ago. The only problem that I have is that the class ballance seems too good to perfectly simulate my favorite fantasy series. (Wheel of Time. Casters are no longer teh Uber.)

Reserving final judgement for June, but I mostly feel like a raving fanboi. It would be very hard for Wizards to ruin it for me now, and if they do, I will just house rule 4e into what I am currently expecting!

Back to my mundane life of Good Father, Good Husband, Good Student.
 

This thread is growing like kudzu!

Too many posts that I disagree with to actually quote and do a point-by-point rebuttal, so I'll just sum up my position.

1) The 4Ed multiclassing system is illogical. When people dabble in a field outside of their specialty, they don't pick up the abilities of experienced persons within that field- they start off as novices themselves. Yet this system lets you swap out a class ability for another class' ability of the same or lesser value.

From Exerpt:
When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.

Example: When Michael Jordan retired from basketball (the first time) and took up baseball, he didn't go from leading the NBA in several categories to leading the MLB in some category. In fact, he couldn't even play baseball well enough to get out of the minor leagues.

Are there exceptions to this? Of course- but they're exceedingly rare. To continue looking at sports, in all of history, only one player has played in both a Superbowl and a World Series- Deion Sanders. And in his case, it was one singular attribute of his that allowed him to succeed. His speed let him cover any WR in football and frequently steal bases in baseball.

There is no such synergy between melee combat and spellslinging.

2) The assertions that 3Ed multiclassing sucked (and all variations theron) for spellcasters because it robs them of power sway me not in the least. A mage who takes the time to become proficient in thievery or warcraft is by neccessity not spending as much time on learning the Craft as his non-dabbling contemporaries, and it follows that he should be a less potent spellcaster for his extra-curricular activities...FOREVER. It also follows that he will never be as talented as dedicated rogues or warriors because he's not putting in the time on their drills while his nose is buried in some arcane tome.

Do I think that there problems with multiclassing in 3.X? Yes, the very minor one about the XP penalty/Favored class thing, which is easily ditched.

3) This isn't multiclassing, its cherry-picking. Multiclassing- to me and obviously others in this thread- means that you are fully capable (at a proficiency described mechanically in your PC's respective levels) and responsible as a member of each of your individual classes. A Warrior Priest is both a warrior and a full priest, not some guy who can fight well and can occasionally do some single thing priests do. If my PC were to go to a 4Ed version of such a PC and ask for some everyday priestly duty to be performed on his behalf, only to be told that he couldn't do it because all he could do is raise the dead, he'd be plenty ticked. That's a miracle worker, to be sure, but that's not a priest.

I definitely feel shortchanged by this incarnation of multiclassing rules.

Or as Judge Judy says: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060927941/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

4) Even if I considered this to be multiclassing (which I clearly don't), this is easily the most limited form of it ever.
From Exerpt:
You can dabble in a second class but not a third.

Even in 1Ed, I could play a 3 classed 1/2Elf, or a Human with even more with Dual-Classing (heck, Bards in 1Ed required dabbling in several classes).

So, we've gone from the most wide-open range of options within the game's history to the most restrictive.

If I were to look back and try to recapture the feel- not attempting some kind of full conversion- of most of my past D&D PCs in this system, I couldn't do it- its a rare PC of mine with only 2 classes.

Example: My NG drow Rgr/Druid/MU (who at 26 years of play, for the record, predates Drizzt by 6 years, thank you very much) is basically balanced between his 3 classes. He's a defender of nature so staunch he actually threatened the party's mage (a "Tim" wannabe) with attack if he launched a fireball at the approaching party of undead critters...because they were in the middle of an old-growth forest, uses his shapechanging abilities for surveillance, eschews most flashy spells in favor of Transmutation spells almost exclusively, and fights on the front lines of the party most of the time.

That's just one.

All that said: it may be that this all works as a system, but I don't think I'll be calling this my favorite (or even any) form of D&D.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
This thread is growing like kudzu!

Too many posts that I disagree with to actually quote and do a point-by-point rebuttal, so I'll just sum up my position.

1) The 4Ed multiclassing system is illogical. When people dabble in a field outside of their specialty, they don't pick up the abilities of experienced persons within that field- they start off as novices themselves. Yet this system lets you swap out a class ability for another class' ability of the same or lesser value.



Example: When Michael Jordan retired from basketball (the first time) and took up baseball, he didn't go from leading the NBA in several categories to leading the MLB in some category. In fact, he couldn't even play baseball well enough to get out of the minor leagues.

Are there exceptions to this? Of course- but they're exceedingly rare. To continue looking at sports, in all of history, only one player has played in both a Superbowl and a World Series- Deion Sanders. And in his case, it was one singular attribute of his that allowed him to succeed. His speed let him cover any WR in football and frequently steal bases in baseball.

There is no such synergy between melee combat and spellslinging.
It may not be realistic, but tell me what's more fun:

Be a Fighter and gain a single Magic Missile at a level where, due to Spell Resistance and the like, will do absolutely nothing to enemies and be a waste of a turn?
vs
Be a Fighter and gain an equivalent-level power that will work as if a Wizard of your level had cast it?

I damn sure wouldn't like to have a weak power that will do nothing at all in a battle.
 

It may not be realistic, but tell me what's more fun

For me?

I'd have more fun going the former route (albeit with a different spell selection- I've never used MM) than the latter.

To me, the latter mucks about with my willing suspension of disbelief...its an intellectual version of cutting in line. A cheat, if you will.

If I wind up playing 4Ed, I forsee myself predominantly playing solo-classed PCs.
 

Oh yeah- forgot one.

5) I can't choose when to "multiclass." If I read this properly, I can't choose to start multiclassing at 2nd level. To me, that sucketh hugely.
 

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