Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Voadam]

Ok a character that is primarily a melee combatant, with little personal defenses and relying primarily on spells to enhance his offense without necessarily having big controllerish abilities like web, sleep, and so forth.

If I have summarized what you've described accurately, I'd either make this guy a ranger (2-weapon fighting variant) or a rogue (burly type rogue) and then multiclass into either wizard (if you want more controllerish type spells/abilities) or warlock (if you want more ranged strikey options). From what I've seen buffs aren't a major part of the game in 4e, at least not the way they were in 3e at any rate, so that aspect of the concept might not work out no matter what the multiclassing rules are or aren't.

The above would get you through the heroic tier, moving into the paragon tier it sounds like you'd probably grab the paragon path for the multiclass you selected rather than for your base class. Without knowing about epic tiers, it's impossible to say for sure.

I wouldn't see this character starting off as a fighter simply because you described him as a melee combatant who doesn't have big armor and a shield and doesn't try to fill a defender-type role. Instead you described a sort of classic melee striker who has some magic overlay.

I'm not deep into 4e rules mastery or concepts so far so I am trying to get some more input.

I think you are right that melee striker instead of defender is the role I'm looking for here for translating my character and rogue or ranger might be the class for that instead of fighter which is fine.

But I'm looking for a wizard moving to take on the melee striker role through multiclassing and appropriate wizard and general feat power selection. Dipping into wizard from the normally melee stiker position is a possible path that looks like it can handle level appropriate challenges competently but I think of my character as a spellcasting wizard who specialized in melee, not a meleer who dabbles in a few limited spells. I'm looking for a 3e wizard eldritch knight type build, not a duskblade type one.

The WotC 4e multiclassing statement found in the 4e news thread says "any combo, any level, always works." So I'm trying to look at wizard multiclassing into a melee class to see if he can do melee at least semicompetently.

By my understanding classes are all the same for BAB and saves, correct? So it is just hp, skills, starting proficiencies, and class powers that differ by class correct?

What powers do these melee classes offer a wizard when he multiclasses into them? How much can feats allow a character to handle a different role.

I understand this is a two role concept and the game is designed around mostly handling one role, but one of the functions of multiclassing is to fill in a party's holes so this could be a good design goal for solo play or for smaller or lopsided parties (which was very true in 3e, he is a great solo character, but mechanically gets outshined in a full party filling the normal niches).

 

[Torchlyte]

A lot of this post will be rephrasing what I've said before, so I probably shouldn't post... but then, this thread is long enough that that is allowed, right?

Most (not all) of my problems with 4e MCing is the name (and what is in a name, really?). It is counter-intuitive to me that a process called multi-classing doesn't give you the aspects of the class you are multi-ing into. The bog-standard fighter/rogue, if started as a rogue, loses (by losing feats, not significant) toughness rather than improving on one of the defining characteristics of the class he is multi-ing into. Now, JohnSnow might say that if he did improve his hitpoints (like a 3e MC), it would be unbalanced because he didn't give up anything significant. While true, that is, to my mind an indictment of the process: 4e MCing *does not* let you "average" your two classes. You don't give up anything key to your class-role, and hence can't pick up anything important to your MCed class-role. How can you call that multi-classing?

I also expect that MC will come to be viewed as weak. Swapping equivalently powered Powers at the cost of a feat might be worth it for increased versatility. However, in 4e different classes use different weapon/implement sets. If you want to multi from Fighter into rogue, you *can't* make use of your sneak attack 1/encounter without either using a gimped weapon (thereby negating any advantage of sneak attacking) unless you spend an extra feat on SAing with a real weapon (which IIRC is possible?). That makes the initial feat +7 damage/encounter at the cost of 2 feats. With longer encounters, that is probably about .35 damage/feat/encounter, less if you have to declare the SA before attacking. Anyone remember if the other rogue Exploits are light-blade dependent?

Feat-damage efficiency isn't really all that high in the first place. Lethal hunter gives you +1.05 damage after factoring in critcal strikes (assuming you only crit on 20). The '+1d10 on crit' feat is worth 5.5*.05 = .275

 

[Voadam]

I think everyone on the thread would agree that these feats work well for dipping from either class. The argument is on whether or not they can achieve even greater depth.

A wizard grabbing fighter multiclass feats would work just fine (better than in 3.5 with the changes to BAB and removal of ASF).

Can you explain that? I've seen a few people say they see melee dipping into spellcasting working fine conceptually, but that the other way around looks problematic.

Ignoring my cross-role goal of going from wizard controller seeking to pick up an extra role of melee striker, what specifically does a wizard gain from multiclassing into any of the melee classes and what does this allow him to do? Be more effective with his spells through martial tricks? Do defensive maneuver type things that will keep him alive longer?

I'm not familiar with the class powers that can be swapped, I just know it is not increased hp or saves or base attack type bonus.

 

[Scipio202]

Can you explain that? I've seen a few people say they see melee dipping into spellcasting working fine conceptually, but that the other way around looks problematic.

Ignoring my cross-role goal of going from wizard controller seeking to pick up an extra role of melee striker, what specifically does a wizard gain from multiclassing into any of the melee classes and what does this allow him to do? Be more effective with his spells through martial tricks? Do defensive maneuver type things that will keep him alive longer?

I'm not familiar with the class powers that can be swapped, I just know it is not increased hp or saves or base attack type bonus.

If you are an arcane controller you will have lots of powers that are AoE damage (often with an extra penalty to the targets) that attacks Ref/Will/Fort.

If you go into a martial striker, you'll be picking up powers that are focused damage, and may come with something like imposing penalties or forced move, that target AC. You're also likely to want powers that benefit from movement since you don't really want to tank. A forced move power could be a good "get away from me" power if somebody slips past the defender.

 

[katahn]

I'm not deep into 4e rules mastery or concepts so far so I am trying to get some more input.

I think you are right that melee striker instead of defender is the role I'm looking for here for translating my character and rogue or ranger might be the class for that instead of fighter which is fine.

But I'm looking for a wizard moving to take on the melee striker role through multiclassing and appropriate wizard and general feat power selection. Dipping into wizard from the normally melee stiker position is a possible path that looks like it can handle level appropriate challenges competently but I think of my character as a spellcasting wizard who specialized in melee, not a meleer who dabbles in a few limited spells. I'm looking for a 3e wizard eldritch knight type build, not a duskblade type one.

The WotC 4e multiclassing statement found in the 4e news thread says "any combo, any level, always works." So I'm trying to look at wizard multiclassing into a melee class to see if he can do melee at least semicompetently.

By my understanding classes are all the same for BAB and saves, correct? So it is just hp, skills, starting proficiencies, and class powers that differ by class correct?

What powers do these melee classes offer a wizard when he multiclasses into them? How much can feats allow a character to handle a different role.

I understand this is a two role concept and the game is designed around mostly handling one role, but one of the functions of multiclassing is to fill in a party's holes so this could be a good design goal for solo play or for smaller or lopsided parties (which was very true in 3e, he is a great solo character, but mechanically gets outshined in a full party filling the normal niches).

Start from your goal, how the character will play and what portion of their abilities come from what sources. Your original description read as a character who primarily did damage via melee with a big sword (striker) and that this person had an array of magical spells they used to specifically enhance their effectiveness in battle.

A wizard is a specialist in ranged AOE damage, so they don't really seem like a good primary fit to me. However, a splash of wizard abilities to enhance your ability to smash things with your sword does seem to fit.

Without actually reading the rules and knowing if a wizard with a splash of melee training would fit bill, I can't really say. The combat skills of all characters are roughly equivilent, it's more the class-related at-will and encounter abilities that matter. Strikers like the rogue or ranger have very nice melee-oriented at-will abilities that fit the concept as I understand it. Multiclassing from a wizard base gives those at-will abilities as per-encounter ones. So while it reads backwards to you, the net result of "guy who hits things with a sword and knows some spells" is probably best served by MCing into wizard rather than basing on it.

Of course, you could always wait and look for a melee-themed arcane striker type class (or just design one). The Forgotten Realms CS for 4e is supposed to have an arcane defender (swordmage) in it, that might suit you as a base class, depending on whether or not their defendering schtick comes from heavy-armor or personal and persistent magical protection spells.

 

[jaldaen]

You're also likely to want powers that benefit from movement since you don't really want to tank. A forced move power could be a good "get away from me" power if somebody slips past the defender.

I addition to moving enemies away from you you could also use a power to move enemies closer together and then use your action point to hit them with a more effective AoE power.

 

[DM_Blake]

See, to me, it seems that if I'm being honest, there aren't a whole lot of characters (even in fiction) that are as multitalented as people seem to be asking for here. When you have a character who's as tough as a fighter, can cast spells like a wizard, and has the skill set of a rogue, you have what fiction writers call a "Mary Sue." It's a character with no weaknesses to speak of, and it's lame.

For example, it's like wanting to run Star Wars with Han Solo as a Jedi Knight. Quite honestly, I put Cade Skywalker from the new Star Wars comic series into this category. He's a smuggler jedi with a dark past...oh yeah, he's also a Skywalker. Please! Sure, you can do it, but what does a character like that need with a party? It is, to an extent, a problem with Jedi in general. They're so self-sufficient they just wander around kicking butt. As much as I like The Wheel of Time, I wouldn't deny that Rand's a bit of a Mary Sue. But I digress...

Characters, good characters, have strengths and weaknesses. The class system builds those into a D&D character by making them better at some things and worse at others. The oft-quoted 50/50 fighter/wizard or cleric/wizard seems, to me, to be mostly about being able to be a wizard when it's most beneficial to be one and being able to fall back on another, better, role for those times when being a magic-user sucks.

IMO, that's why it's been so hard for people to lay out a character concept that can't be modeled well in this system. Because for the most part, it's not the concept that's taken the hit, it's the game-breaking uber-character.

My two cents. Flame away.

Dangit, John, I always like arguing with you, but this time I can't...

Speaking as a writer, I have to totally agree with what you've said. Fiction abounds with characters who must face their own weaknesses and prevail despite those weaknesses.

Without weaknesses, a fictional hero becomes uninteresting.

I think Superman is a classic example of this. He could do it all. Outfight, outfly, outspeed, and outmuscle all his enemies, he's indestructible, can see through almost anything, has eye lasers and a breath weapon for those useful ranged and ae attacks when super-strength just won't get the job done. He can even time travel, when needed. Ahh, but kryptonite. How many times can we see Superman kick everyone's butt, then be laid low by kryptonite, then find a way to escape the kryptonite, then finish kicking everyone's butt?

So, for once, we agree.

With a caveat...

While reading about fallable heroes makes for good literature, sometimes reading about invincible heroes is just plain fun. Conan, John Carter, Rambo, John McClane, Superman. Nobody beats them. They never lose. They can still be fun. One-dimensional. Predictable. But fun.

Each of these guys has their other problems though. Sure, John McClane kicks everyone's butt, and can't be killed, even by highly trained expert mercenaries with machine guns, explosives, high-tech gear, and even advanced prototype military aircraft. But, he can't keep his wife happy, has alcohol issues, fear of flying, relationship problems with everyone, etc. So his flaws, while they don't slow him down in butt-kicking combat, really crush his role-playing aspects.

Even Superman couldn't live a happy, carefree heroic life. Secret identity, can't get the girl or she'll expose his secret, etc.

Oh, and one more caveat...

From the POV of actually being the hero, all things considered, I like to be the invincible kind.

If I had to strap on some armor, and go crawling through dark dangerous dungeons (DDD), and I had my choice to either A) be all powerful, able to find traps, slay monsters, heal myself, and cast endless magical utility, or B) pick one of those things and rely on strangers to join me in the DDD so that they can, hopefully, do the rest of that stuff without screwing up and getting me killed, I would pick A.

So, when I game, I try to go for A there, too, though I'm not so singlemindedly dedicated to the idea in a game as I would be if it were real life.

But, my current group of players in the group I'm not DMing has me thinking that self-sufficiency is required. One player can never be counted on to make good tactical decisions. He's a dual-wielding barbarian who never rages, not even once in months of play, and deals about an average of 10 HP per hit at 9th level. Our only rogue shows up to 1/3 of the game sessions and generally detects traps by blundering into them, or hanging out in the back to let the barbarian set them off first. Our cleric things nothing of charging into battle screaming prayers to Kord, and is usually the first one to go unconscious - at best she's spending round after round healing herself to stay alive, so nobody else gets much healing. Our fighter ok, fairly dependable and makes good tactical decisions. And I'm the mage. I usually account well for myself, but since I get no protection from the group and very little healing, and most of the monsters are intelligent enough to take me out first, I spend most of my combats using defensive utility just to try to stay alive.

Yeah, I like the players, and enjoy the gaming, but that's the kind of group that makes me want to be Superman.

 

[FireLance]

Okay, thinking a little more about the cost of swap feats:

Perhaps gaining access to a secondary class power outside your role might be worth a feat, but gaining access to a power from another class with the same role may not be as useful. Perhaps then the solution is four Versatile [Role] feats that allow you to swap an encounter, a utility and a daily power from another class with the same role?

So a Fighter multiclassed into Paladin with the Versatile Defender feat could select one encounter, one utility and one daily Paladin power for the cost of one feat.

 

[Voadam]

Start from your goal, how the character will play and what portion of their abilities come from what sources. Your original description read as a character who primarily did damage via melee with a big sword (striker) and that this person had an array of magical spells they used to specifically enhance their effectiveness in battle.

A wizard is a specialist in ranged AOE damage, so they don't really seem like a good primary fit to me. However, a splash of wizard abilities to enhance your ability to smash things with your sword does seem to fit.

Without actually reading the rules and knowing if a wizard with a splash of melee training would fit bill, I can't really say. The combat skills of all characters are roughly equivilent, it's more the class-related at-will and encounter abilities that matter. Strikers like the rogue or ranger have very nice melee-oriented at-will abilities that fit the concept as I understand it. Multiclassing from a wizard base gives those at-will abilities as per-encounter ones. So while it reads backwards to you, the net result of "guy who hits things with a sword and knows some spells" is probably best served by MCing into wizard rather than basing on it.

Of course, you could always wait and look for a melee-themed arcane striker type class (or just design one). The Forgotten Realms CS for 4e is supposed to have an arcane defender (swordmage) in it, that might suit you as a base class, depending on whether or not their defendering schtick comes from heavy-armor or personal and persistent magical protection spells.

Right, starting with the goal I'm serious about being a wizard MCing into a striker instead of a striker MCing into wizard to recreate this character.

This eldritch knight is the party wizard, he has a lot of melee buff and personal defense spells, but he is also the one who does divinations (locate object, see invisible, analyze dweomer, scry, legend lore) and utility spells (knock, summon monster, teleport, shadow walk, fly, limited wish). He casts cantrips all the time for flavor reasons. He is loaded up on knowledges across the board.

In combat I like him to primarily hack things apart in melee while magically enhanced, and only secondarily do ranged attacks like scorching ray or cone of cold or battlefield control like wall of ice or web. I'm fine with him being a decent but second tier melee combatant who does not usually stand out in that role, but can handle it decently enough.

I agree that "guy who hits things with a sword and knows some spells" is probably best served by going melee striker MCing into wizard or warlock, but that's not what I'm looking for. That would be translating him into a duskblade type concept. I'm looking for a character that is primarily a wizard but who can give up a little magic and act as a backup melee striker role.

I'm not sure 4e MCing handles this until you get to the paragon route path.

It looks like picking up toughness multiple times and a sword proficiency are what are needed, and possibly some striker abilities. Though if it is just 1/encounter weak striker abilities, it might not be enough of a gain to change the low hp unarmored mage who is normally a vulnerable artillerist into a functional melee striker.

I think this is also probably the toughest case for the 4e MC because the wizard has a lot of vulnerability in his base (low hp and weapon/armor skill) and a lot of the power balance thrown into his powers. He is the most vulnerable class in melee and others (defenders and controller abilities) are designed to keep him out of melee.

Giving a wizard a few new non melee powers can conceptually work great (warlock single target ranged striking, cleric healing, leadership/group buffing abilities, etc.) as you can still do those from the protected role in the rear, but melee powers you have to deal with the wizard's inherent non power base class weaknesses.

 

[Destil]

Hopes, dreams, wishes...

So, after going through a good 20+ pages of this thread over the last two days I may as well get my hits in.

Power swapping in this edition is multiclassing. No THAC0, no BAB, no spellcasting levels no non-weapon proficiencies or skill points anymore. Just powers, the 1/2 level bonus and some misc things (HP, healing surges) + class features.

At first I was disappointed, hoping for something more like Star Wars Saga. Frontloading and Spellcasting were the only parts of 3E multiclassing that didn't work, and the whole system was very very elegant. After some reflection I'm only worried about the opportunity cost of 3 feats (the first one, of course, is clearly one of the strongest heroic tier feats we've seen).

So my hope is that some of this opportunity cost is lessened when you read the actual descriptions of the feat, instead of what we see here, their table entry. In an ideal world:

Initiate of the Faith
Prerequisites: Wis 13
Benefit: You grain skilltraining in the Religion skill, if you are already trained in religion you can instead choose any other skill on the Cleric class list.

You are considered to be a cleric for any prerequisites, such as those for a paragon paths and feats.

You can healing word once per day. Like a cleric with this class feature you can use this power up to twice per encounter, but no more than once per round.

Each time you choose Novice Power, Acolyte Power or Adept Power as a feat you gain one additional use per day of Healing Word. If you have all three it becomes an encounter power for you.

Something like this, where the class-specific feat can be a little complex and tailored to the class, and the generic feats can fill all the gaps. So whenever a new class comes out we only need one feat and a paragon path to enable full multi-classing.