Excerpt: skill challenges

[Celebrim]

Why?

One of my best quantum leaps in DMing skill, lets call it, came when I realized that I should be prepping plan resolution instead of goal resolution.

I think you are really talking about two different things at this point. It's good to be able to plan for PC actions. Nothing sucks worse as a DM than the PC's deciding now is a great time to sneak into the foil's fortress, when you weren't planning on direct conflict between the foil and the PC's for many sessions and never bothered to map out his fortress. It's a really good thing when this plan emerges near the end of a session so you can prep for the plan. There is nothing wrong with avoiding painting anywhere but where the PC's plan to travel if you can.

It's quite another thing to insist that the PC's can only go where you've already painted. The skill challenge seems to suggest the later more than the former. It's more along the lines of 'The road is lined on both sides with an impassably dense forest.... No you can't just chop down the trees, they are too dense. Didn't you here me say it was impassable?... Now, do you want to go down the road or not?'

So I encourage the players to talk things over before they go to the Duke. To plan ahead, and get everyone "on message." They roleplay a little bit. This has two purposes. First, it lets them act in character, and that's healthy. Second, it lets me listen in, and write my notes on the encounter to explicitly address the player's plan.

Everyone has a richer experience as a result.

*sigh* You know, I don't know where you find those players. Even the best most mature most fun players to game with I've ever had weren't nearly so agreeable. Do you find 'Knights of the Dinner Table' funny? Cause I find it freaking hilarious and I'm inclined to think you don't really get the joke because its stuff that doesn't happen to you.

You mean you've never had that hyper competititve schemer in the party who never reveals any of the details of his plan until the very last minute so that a) he gets to look cool for having thought of such a creative plan and b) he gets to see just how quickly the DM can cope and maybe catch him off gaurd?

You've never had that group that either goes into the other room or spends the whole week emailing each other to create a master plan so that the DM won't be able to 'cheat' by prepping for a particular course of action?

"Screw this! I'm sick of trying to rescue this stupid princess from this stupid necromancer. Lets become pirates!"

There are DMs on this boards that will tell you that they prefer players like that because when the players take control of thier own destiny, then they are having the sort of game that they want to play and they aren't bored. BA's equivalent of 'Let's become pirates!' was 'Let's become big game hunters!' And heck, I played in one game where we really did become pirates.

 

[hong]

You mean you've never had that hyper competititve schemer in the party who never reveals any of the details of his plan until the very last minute so that a) he gets to look cool for having thought of such a creative plan and b) he gets to see just how quickly the DM can cope and maybe catch him off gaurd?

You've never had that group that either goes into the other room or spends the whole week emailing each other to create a master plan so that the DM won't be able to 'cheat' by prepping for a particular course of action?

These issues go away once you realise you should game only with people who know not to think too hard about fantasy.

 

[LostSoul]

Why?

It's the difference between "Task Resolution" and "Conflict Resolution". If we resolve the plan - to make the Duke trust the PCs - we haven't resolved if he's going to help the PCs or not. That we have to leave up to DM fiat.

(That's assuming the PC's goal is to get his help, and not to become his friend.)

 

[Cadfan]

It's quite another thing to insist that the PC's can only go where you've already painted.

The fundamental secret to my l33t ninj4 DM skillz- the lines are where they've already painted. I provide the hooks, and color in the details.

*sigh* You know, I don't know where you find those players. Even the best most mature most fun players to game with I've ever had weren't nearly so agreeable. Do you find 'Knights of the Dinner Table' funny? Cause I find it freaking hilarious and I'm inclined to think you don't really get the joke because its stuff that doesn't happen to you.

I find it hilarious as well. But you know what? Its hilarious because its a comic strip about conflict between a DM and his players. Its NOT a comic strip about conflict between player characters and a gameworld. I strive to play the latter type of game, not the former. At the end of a KoDT plotline, the players have typically defeated the dungeon master, not the big bad guy or the plotline. Its funny because its an archetypal example of a completely dysfunctional gaming group.

You mean you've never had that hyper competititve schemer in the party who never reveals any of the details of his plan until the very last minute so that a) he gets to look cool for having thought of such a creative plan and b) he gets to see just how quickly the DM can cope and maybe catch him off gaurd?

You've never had that group that either goes into the other room or spends the whole week emailing each other to create a master plan so that the DM won't be able to 'cheat' by prepping for a particular course of action?

No. Never.

Reason 1: Suppose the player is doing it to look cool for having thought of a surprise plan. That player is an absolute moron. I don't game with morons. He's a moron because, if you think about that course of action for two lousy seconds, its obvious that it won't work.

Blindsiding me with unlikely, unexpected plans doesn't make it more likely that your plans will go in your favor because, instead of me working out logical and plausible ways for the world to react to your characters, I'm ad libbing.

So when I've prepped with the assumption that the players will reason with the Duke, and instead they shoot him in the knee with a crossbow, it doesn't mean that things will work out the way they hope. Instead, it means things will work out the way they pop into my head at that exact moment. God only knows what will happen then.

Meanwhile, if the player comes up with a creative plan and telegraphs it to me in advance, I can make sure that the creative plan is matched with a logical outcome. That's... kind of my job.

Reason 2: As for the players who do it purely to see "how well the DM can cope," I find it best to kill their characters in the resulting chaos. Then not game with them anymore.

Reason 3: Take the player who's doing it because he's afraid I will "cheat" by prepping the outcome of his plan. If one of my players feels this way, somewhere there is a total breakdown of the group going on. Maybe its him, maybe its me. But someone has utterly failed.

I work to establish trust with my players so that they learn that by telegraphing their actions to me, I will make sure that a richer game is achieved. Instead of, you know, screwing them over by laying down rails that lead them back to where I want them to go.

There are DMs on this boards that will tell you that they prefer players like that because when the players take control of thier own destiny, then they are having the sort of game that they want to play and they aren't bored. BA's equivalent of 'Let's become pirates!' was 'Let's become big game hunters!' And heck, I played in one game where we really did become pirates.

When I wrote that, I cringed a bit because I just knew someone was going to try to "beat" me by pointing out the wonderful game he played in where he was a pirate. I'm referring to a trope. The trope where there's a disjoint between the DM and the players, and the players respond by completely kicking over the apple cart of the gameworld. Maybe its because the DM is railroading them and they respond by metaphorically disrailing the train in as spectacular a crash as they can engineer. Maybe its because they're just punks and want to run amuck. In either case, I think I'll start calling it a "Screw this, lets become pirates!" moment.

 

[Mallus]

You know, I don't know where you find those players.

I find them in Philadelphia.

You mean you've never had that hyper competititve schemer in the party who never reveals any of the details of his plan until the very last minute so that a) he gets to look cool for having thought of such a creative plan...

Not in a long time. My players know they're clever. They don't often feel the need to show off, and when they do, they do so in an agreeably public manner that more often that not entertains everyone at the table.

You've never had that group that either goes into the other room or spends the whole week emailing each other to create a master plan so that the DM won't be able to 'cheat' by prepping for a particular course of action?

My current players realize that I'm a partner in their fun and not some opposing general from whom they need to guard their 'secret plans'.

Loose lips might sink ships, but they sure as hell improve D&D campaigns.

 

[Lacyon]

*sigh* You know, I don't know where you find those players. Even the best most mature most fun players to game with I've ever had weren't nearly so agreeable. Do you find 'Knights of the Dinner Table' funny? Cause I find it freaking hilarious and I'm inclined to think you don't really get the joke because its stuff that doesn't happen to you.

KoDT-style Players-vs.-DM mentality hasn't happened to me since I got out of High School, except in those games where I specifically encouraged it (either because I was a moron, or because that particular game/group combination had more fun with it).

 

[Baka no Hentai]

In either case, I think I'll start calling it a "Screw this, lets become pirates!" moment.

I think a scientific term is a "Yarrrr!" moment. And... well, if not, then it should be!

These accusations that limiting a particular skill in a particular skill challenge equates to railroading are based on a false premise.... that the only way you can achieve your primary goal (to remove the threat from the borderlands) is to get the help of the duke. This is obviously not the case, as they have stated clearly that a skill challenge should not be the sole determining factor of an adventure.... players would have the choice to skip it entirely, or to try it and fail miserably. Doing either of those two may make their primary goal harder, but that doesnt change the fact that those options are available.

Because those options are available, limiting intimidate in this skill challenge is not railroading. Players still have multiple routes of success for their primary objective. Just because not all of those routes are as optimal as others doesnt make it railroading, it makes it interesting.

 

[rkanodia]

I think a scientific term is a "Yarrrr!" moment. And... well, if not, then it should be!

The werd ye be lookin' fer is "Yarrrrr-eka!"

 

[Mallus]

The werd ye be lookin' fer is "Yarrrrr-eka!"

Thank you for next supers PC: Yarrueka the Science Pirate.

"Did I mention me new peg-leg's a railgun? Built her meself using me old peg-leg and a load of superconducting vanadium we 'liberated' from CERN".

 

[Celebrim]

The fundamental secret to my l33t ninj4 DM skillz- the lines are where they've already painted...I'm referring to a trope. The trope where there's a disjoint between the DM and the players, and the players respond by completely kicking over the apple cart of the gameworld. Maybe its because the DM is railroading them and they respond by metaphorically disrailing the train in as spectacular a crash as they can engineer. Maybe its because they're just punks and want to run amuck. In either case, I think I'll start calling it a "Screw this, lets become pirates!" moment.

Or you know, maybe they just want to be pirates. Maybe thats the line they've painted. Irony, no?

Part of the funny in OotS is that BA has these elaborate plans laid out that never come to fruitation. In OotS, all the good moments occur after the applecart has been kicked over. Often, the whole campaign results from what happens when the players kick over the apple cart. When BA finally gives up and goes along with the lines that his players paint instead, things generally turn out pretty well both from the standpoint of his ability to out think his players and keep them entertained and from the standpoint of his frustration level with the players because they are no longer feeling confined. He gives up and goes along with the 'Let's become pirates!" moment.

So maybe are l33t ninja DMing skills aren't so different at all.