Excerpt: Swarms

[beverson]

Erm...correct me if I'm mistaken, but Mike looked to be writing very tongue-in-cheek throughout the article.

I agree a couple early articles were bad this way, but it almsot seems like some people are searching for offence still. Everything he states implies that the 4e rule is better than the 3e rule, not that people that dare use the 3e rule are idiots.

This.

 

[Alikar]

The article mentions Fellcrest for next week. What is that?

 

[Celebrim]

I popped onto this thread to register a complaint that the needlefang looks completely unbalanced compared to what I've seen (and trust me, I'm paying attention)... and looks like I've been well beat to the punch.

Still, most things have looked okay even when slightly questionable (Hill Giant, for instance), but this one is a huge red flag, especially as a soldier with high defenses.

If you make monsters more like magic cards, you'll get magic card like results.

I suspect each new MM will have its 'trash' - low challenge creatures that give you lots of XP compared to the risk (zombie minion) - and its killer bombs - creatures that are much harder than thier XP suggests (needlefang drake swarm).

Seriously, 2d10+4 damage?!?!? We've seen very high level monsters whose basic attack didn't do more than 1d10+4 damage. The crit on a pulled down character averages 26 damage. And the designer seems to have neglected that its burst attack translates into extra standard actions each round. That gives the swarm some very 'solo monster' like characteristics. And it's as durable as many elite monsters unless you have a ton of area attacks in the party.

The funny thing is that this is difficult to fix without changing the monster. If they make the swarm an elite monster, its hit points double. If they raise its level, its gets more hit points and better attacks. If they make it a level 1 solo monster (which is closer to its actual strength) not only does it get alot more hit points, but they are basically asserting you aren't supposed to encounter swarms in swarms. The delicious irony.

My guess is that they shouldn't have used quite so much 'exception based design' in designing the swarm. Unless it is facing a controller, all of its characteristics are to its favor. It looks like they decided that swarms should do damage as a creature larger than medium - d10 is a big dice. It needs to drop to a d6 or something to be appropriate for a non-elite creature of this level.

 

[Dausuul]

I popped onto this thread to register a complaint that the needlefang looks completely unbalanced compared to what I've seen (and trust me, I'm paying attention)... and looks like I've been well beat to the punch.

Still, most things have looked okay even when slightly questionable (Hill Giant, for instance), but this one is a huge red flag, especially as a soldier with high defenses.

Hmm... I dunno about that. The thing about the swarms we're seeing here is that if you have a fair bit of area-attack firepower, they're toast, but if you don't, you're ant food. That vulnerability 5 to area attacks will add up very fast if you're facing multiple swarms... if you have area attacks to use, that is. And if you can keep them off the wizard long enough for him to fry them up nicely.

Also note that according to the rules, the fighter's Combat Superiority ability (+2 on OAs and stop the enemy from moving) works on swarms. Swarms are immune to being forcibly moved (push, pull, or slide), not to being forcibly stopped from moving. Of course, it'd be a reasonable house rule to extend that immunity to anything that affects the swarm's movement, but it would be a house rule. And Divine Challenge does full damage to the swarm, so the defenders can actually still defend.

I'll have to test it out tonght, but it seems like five of the DDXP characters should have a fair shot at taking on four needlefang drake swarms as long as they use smart tactics. Put Kathra and Corrin in front, have them hold the swarms at bay while Erais pumps them full of healing mojo and Riardon snipes. Meanwhile, Skamos lays down round after round of scorching burst. With any luck he can catch at least two swarms in every blast. If one of the defenders goes down, Riardon can step up to take some heat for Skamos.

Without Skamos, though, they're totally hosed.

 

[Stalker0]

The funny thing is that this is difficult to fix without changing the monster. If they make the swarm an elite monster, its hit points double. If they raise its level, its gets more hit points and better attacks. If they make it a level 1 solo monster (which is closer to its actual strength) not only does it get alot more hit points, but they are basically asserting you aren't supposed to encounter swarms in swarms. The delicious irony.

Remember, in 4e we don't have to be a slave to the numbers. We can just slap on an elite sticker onto the creature, and .... its done. Now its an elite, only max 2 of them for a regular combat.

That said, I agree with people that the drake just seems way too low a level for what it does, ESPECIALLY if you add in more swarms (and we are going to add in more swarms, that's makes the most sense in many encounters).

I mean, since swarms can move into people's squares, I can easily get 5 swarms adjacent to one party member. Now with the PC having to make 5 fort saves vs prone, he's more than likely going to drop prone. So the swarms attack. And then on the pcs turn they attack again.

Let's assume they hit 50% of the time (which considering the PC is prone and the the AC's I've seen of 1st level party, I think that's completely reasonable). So we have 2d10+4 x 5 attacks (avg: 75). That's got high level brute monsters blushing!!

 

[keterys]

Without Skamos, though, they're totally hosed.

Except that Skamos will still need to hit a particular swarm three times to take it out and will miss 60% of the time.

The real winner will probably be Corrin, whose mark will chew them up from the aura attacks on other targets.

The MtG analogy didn't make a lot of sense. All versions of D&D have had monsters that were too easy or too hard or just plain stupid depending on the party makeup. This is just the most glaring example, by far... and one I feel is actually broken, as opposed to everything else I've seen that was just 'a little high' or 'a little low'.

Move up into character's space. Minor action to knockdown. Standard attack for 2d10 + 4. Target's turn... oh, another attack for 2d10 + 4. If you want, you can stand up... can't kill it with your action? Well, you can move away provoking, but shifting will still leave it next to you and it'll get 2 minor action knockdown attacks instead of 1. Etc.

Edit: Don't have time to doublecheck it could work exactly like that, so I'll concede it might work _slightly_ differently, but my point still remains.

 

[Dausuul]

Except that Skamos will still need to hit a particular swarm three times to take it out and will miss 60% of the time.

The real winner will probably be Corrin, whose mark will chew them up from the aura attacks on other targets.

Heh, I hadn't thought of that. Does the swarm have the choice to not make its aura attack? The description suggests it's automatic...

 

[Stalker0]

Hmm... I dunno about that. The thing about the swarms we're seeing here is that if you have a fair bit of area-attack firepower, they're toast, but if you don't, you're ant food. That vulnerability 5 to area attacks will add up very fast if you're facing multiple swarms... if you have area attacks to use, that is. And if you can keep them off the wizard long enough for him to fry them up nicely.

Consider though that vulnerability 5 is great, but you are halfling the damage of your fighter/paladin/ranger/rogue. A fighter with a greatsword is doing 2d6+4 lets say, which is 11 damage on average, dropped to 5 for half damage. So your losing 6 damage from the fighter right there. Add in the ranger or rogue and that's more damage your losing. And of course, let's say the fighter uses brutal strike, dealing 6d6 +4 = 25 damage on average, or 12 against a swarm, that's 13 damage your losing!!

So unless your party is caster heavy or you can really get those swarms clumped up, the vulnerability and half weapon damage will generally balance out.

Or worse yet, swarms can go into and through your party and surround them. You have to be careful with your area attacks or you'll hit your own party.

meanwhiles, those drakes can easily kill one party member a round. And they are faster than your party, so they will catch up. They can double move with you, knock you prone, and still get damage on your next action. You can't run away from them.

 

[Stalker0]

The real winner will probably be Corrin, whose mark will chew them up from the aura attacks on other targets.

Assuming the aura is also not hitting Corrin. As long as your attack includes the paladin, your golden. And if corrin is a melee paladin, he has to be in the thick of it to keep the mark up.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Also, you can't actually block the movement of swarms because they can simply move over your square. So they could just all converge on the caster and take him down fast if you want to...
I wouldn't play them that way as DM, but it does seem like they are unbalanced right now...