Excited About Race / Class / Theme

[FireLance]

There already are themes in 4th Edition? I never heard of that. Can you tell me some more about it?

I think themes as a concept made their debut in the Dark Sun campaign setting. Since then, they have appeared in various Dragon articles as well as the Neverwinter campaign setting and Heroes of the Feywild.

The Dark Sun themes are probably the most comprehensive, offering a fairly weak encounter power and power swap options for encounter and daily attack powers and utility powers. Subsquent themes (possibly to mesh better with Essentials classes) provided benefits at 1st, 5th and 10th level, and power swap options for utility powers.

 

[Glade Riven]

There seems to be something that was overlooked in this thread: themes appear to be primarally non-combat related in the transcript. Class effects your main role and combat (Proficiencies, BAB, etc), Themes effect non-combat (skills, rituals, etc), and Race effects both (Core Stats, racial traits).

So you can have a Warlock/Human/Blacksmith - a human warlock who knows his way around a forge. Or a Barbarian/Dwarf/Pubcrawler, who is a brute in combat and can always get intel by sharing a few drinks at a local tavern. Even a Wizard/Elf/Knight, a wizard elf with a code of conduct and who is skilled in horsemanship.

 

[FireLance]

There seems to be something that was overlooked in this thread: themes appear to be primarally non-combat related in the transcript. Class effects your main role and combat (Proficiencies, BAB, etc), Themes effect non-combat (skills, rituals, etc), and Race effects both (Core Stats, racial traits).

So you can have a Warlock/Human/Blacksmith - a human warlock who knows his way around a forge. Or a Barbarian/Dwarf/Pubcrawler, who is a brute in combat and can always get intel by sharing a few drinks at a local tavern. Even a Wizard/Elf/Knight, a wizard elf with a code of conduct and who is skilled in horsemanship.

Does this mean we will eventually have a Vampire/Vampire/Vampire*?

* 4e joke. Don't worry if you don't get it.

 

[bert1000]

race, profession, and organization themes!

I’m a big fan of themes if themes give you some interesting but smaller benefits immediately and then let you swap existing class features/powers/maneuvers/etc. for other theme related features /powers/maneuvers/etc . at various levels up to the highest levels (so they can remain relevant).

I would like 5E to take themes even further. What if every character got to pick 3 themes:

1) Race!
Yes, race is best executed as a theme. You get some immediate benefits (e.g., ability score mods) and can also choose to be a ‘paragon’ version of your race by swapping out class features as you go if you want

2) ‘Profession’ (loosely used)
This could be everything from barbarian, wild talent, noble, assassin, etc. to more the exotic like werewolf. Each profession should be a good match for many classes, with perhaps some classes especially benefiting.

3) Organization
This would represent some sort of political or social organization – member of thieves guild X, agent of morgrave university, etc. There will be some generic ones, but settings would have more specific themes for organizations.

So you might have a

* Halfling Noble Thief who is an agent of the King
* Elf Assassin Mage who is a member of the Nightstalker Tribe

Instant roleplaying hooks with some mechanical backup!

Over the life of the character, you might change 2) or 3) several times. All three would contribute to the character through the base benefits, but you could really emphasize one theme if you wanted to, even for a higher level character.

Now you could probably pull this off in 4e but not sure the 5e structure will be suited for this. Class benefits (powers in 4e) would have to be fairly balanced between classes at particular levels for this to work.

 

[marleykat]

I don't know if this has already been posted but Fantasycraft does EXACTLY this for character creation. Pick a theme which gives you some skills, a feat or two and more, go to race them class, same deal and done. Works fine and that game uses 3.5 as it's engine. Should be dead easy to do it for a simple core like 1e.

 

[Number48]

Don't forget dual-classing or hybrids, which makes 9000 options. With true multiclassing, then you need factorals to figure out all the options.

Themes are considerably less complicated than multi-classing, and a lot of multiclassing options can be done with thieves. I've seen fighter/monks in 3e when all the person really wanted to do was fight unarmed. It would be better just to have unarmed fighting as a theme.

1. Heck, I was only considering options at 1st level. At 2nd level things can get really wild.
2. We don't know that themes are less complicated.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I don't know if this has already been posted but Fantasycraft does EXACTLY this for character creation. Pick a theme which gives you some skills, a feat or two and more, go to race them class, same deal and done. Works fine and that game uses 3.5 as it's engine. Should be dead easy to do it for a simple core like 1e.

Exactly what I was going to post, although FC themes (Specialities) appear broader than what 5E is going for e.g they range from acrobat to fighter to shaman to shield bearer to wizard! But it works really well in FC (the best 3 era crunchy flexible rule set by a wide margin IMO) and gives me much hope for 5E

 

[Li Shenron]

Warlord the class? Bad idea. Warlord the theme? Good idea.

I would prefer that too, but I think it's been said already that Warlord will be a class again, just because it has been

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think people are taking the included classes quote to far

"Bruce: The goal at the moment is to include all the classes that we're in the first PH style book for each edition. No word on other classes yet. "

The goal, doesn't mean we guarantee that any given 'first PHB' class will either
a) be in it as a class
or
b) be in it at all

It is a goal to include them all, but it maybe that including means it is in there as a theme. Or they may not reach that goal.

EDIT: and this is the goal 'at the moment' there is a long way before we see 5E PHB1!
In fact I think people are taking pretty much all the info as too solid, it is pre-alpha solid. As solid as soggy porridge!

 

[marleykat]

I think people are taking the included classes quote to far

"Bruce: The goal at the moment is to include all the classes that we're in the first PH style book for each edition. No word on other classes yet. "

The goal, doesn't mean we guarantee that any given 'first PHB' class will either
a) be in it as a class
or
b) be in it at all

It is a goal to include them all, but it maybe that including means it is in there as a theme. Or they may not reach that goal.

EDIT: and this is the goal 'at the moment' there is a long way before we see 5E PHB1!
In fact I think people are taking pretty much all the info as too solid, it is pre-alpha solid. As solid as soggy porridge!

You're probably right, this is why my attitude overall is, wait and see but optimistic. As for the themes being narrower than FantasyCraft not sure I agree given it was mentioned there was a theme called Pubcrawler and that is a FantasyCraft theme if there ever was one.
I hope they look hard at FantasyCrafts implementation of it given it is a great way to add in alot of class features/skills/feats/talents and still have alot of room to do the same as prizes for class advancement in game.