@Remathilis @Composer99
I can certainly understand that position, and largely agree with it! Many S&S settings are very dour in their overall presentation. They tend to present a world where progress is largely hopeless outside of small steps of a single community or nation-state or something similar. Where we are alone in the universe as positive influences on the world, surrounded only by darkness. After all, the Gods of Crom's world were the same "Great Old Ones" of Lovecraft's work.
Because it was set on a Prehistoric Earth.
A world where Aquilonians would eventually become Romans. Where Poitain Knights would be chevaliers in a future age. Where the Stygians would build dazzling pyramids and rule Egypt.
Which is to say this: As dark as S&S feels in the moment, as much as it lacks that tangible "Relief" at the end of the story where the Status Quo is resumed and goodness reigns... It's still a hopeful setting. Harsh, yes. Cruel, yes. Unjust, yes. But one where the Hero rises up and defeats the Sorcerer. Or the Evil King. Or destroys the ancient Book of the Dead. Where the demon is banished to the pits of hell, and men might know a slight reprieve from the horrors beyond the gates.
We've hit on Conan a lot, and Dark Sun a bit... how about Beastmaster?
-Classic- Swords and Sorcery with the main character as a Ranger, essentially. Animal Companions, Melee Combat, a little range. Fighting against a cruel sorcerer, his horrid witches, his tormented monsters, and more. Aided, in the end, by inscrutable monstrous entities that devour humans in moments and discard their bones on the ground.
And at the end... the world is brighter for his intervention. The evil Sorcerer is dead. The Good King is also dead, but others will rise to take up the role of leadership.
And then there's the Sequel!
... of which we shall not speak.
But here's the other big thing to note about Swords and Sorcery: It does not have to happen in a Desert.
Krull? Swords and Sorcery. Ladyhawke? Swords and Sorcery.
WILLOW. Swords and Sorcery. Freaking -Willow-. Willow Ufgood, Mad Martigan, Fin Raziel, and even Sorsha, the daughter of the evil queen, Bavmorda.
The Existential Crisis comes in multiple forms. There's Fin Raziel realizing she's not a "Beautiful Young Woman". There's Sorsha realizing her loyalties lie with the cause of good. There's Mad Martigan realizing that there are things to fight for more important than the gold to line his pocket. There's Willow, who began the entire thing just trying to get rid of a Daikini Baby forced to become a "Great Sorcerer, Greater than You!" in order to achieve his goals. All of them battling against Bavmorda, whose Magic is so incredible she can turn an entire army into Swine! Who calls out to dark powers beyond mortals. Where Fin Raziel never cries out to the equivalent "Good Entities Beyond". The closest we get to that is a Fairy Queen setting a couple of Brownies on a quest.
You see that? That's the big cruel magic of the world used against an entire army without a single Gandalf among them. It's all Willow can do, using a powerful artifact, to keep himself from being turned into a tiny piglet, like the Brownies. And the great and terrible power that Bavmorda is calling on, something beyond all mortals, beyond our world, reaching down from the stars and the sacrifice to offer her insane and otherworldly power. And in the end Bavmorda is slain, a kingdom of statues are made human, again, and Elora Dannon will be raised as a Princess... Willow just goes home. Mad Martigan is becoming a general and Sorsha has to learn a whole new way of life. Fin Raziel has to become a Teacher and essentially a Grandma when she missed out on everything from 20-something to 70-something.
Yeah, with the Nelwyn and the Brownies you could certainly argue it's more "General Fantasy" than Sword and Sorcery. But if that's the case Dark Sun and Primeval Thule aren't Sword and Sorcery, either, 'cause they've got Elves and Dwarves and stuff. And it's definitely -way- lower Magic than either of those settings, as well.
Sometimes in S&S there's "No feeling of hope for a brighter tomorrow". Or hope only in a small way. But the big reason for that, the huge separator between Sword and Sorcery and High Fantasy is this: S&S Quests are generally -personal- rather than -global-.
When you run Tyranny of Dragons you're stopping Tiamat from Conquering the World. It's a big reality-altering horrible event that would end everything. When you watch the Mythica Movies you know that they're trying to stop Matt Mercer from killing the Gods and attaining Apotheosis for himself by killing everyone else on the planet as a Death-God. Lord of the Rings is all about keeping Sauron from reclaiming the One Ring and conquering all the world.
When Conan stands at the top of the pyramid and tosses the head of Thulsa Doom down the steps, much to the dismay of his acolytes, the world is not saved. Only the people who Thulsa Doom would have killed. (Okay, we all know that James Earl Jones was really playing Thoth-Amon and they gave him the name of Kull's Lich antagonist for no apparent reason, but the point stands).
Dar the Beastmaster saves the village, saves the princess, ends the threat of the evil sorcerer... but what does that -do- for the world that still has the no-mouth bat-wing people-digesting monsters? Not a whole lot. The status quo has been restored for the little village with no more human sacrifices... but that's all.
That doesn't mean that Dar and Conan have done nothing that matters. It just means that the scale of the good that they have done is -personal-. On a human level rather than a cosmic level. Because like Existentialist Nihilism that pushes us to re-evaluate our existence not on a Cosmic Scale, or a Geologic Scale, or even a Global scale... Their actions, their heroism, is only measured against themselves and the world they live in. The people around them, and the good or evil that is done to them, "deserved" or otherwise.
I can certainly understand that position, and largely agree with it! Many S&S settings are very dour in their overall presentation. They tend to present a world where progress is largely hopeless outside of small steps of a single community or nation-state or something similar. Where we are alone in the universe as positive influences on the world, surrounded only by darkness. After all, the Gods of Crom's world were the same "Great Old Ones" of Lovecraft's work.
Because it was set on a Prehistoric Earth.
A world where Aquilonians would eventually become Romans. Where Poitain Knights would be chevaliers in a future age. Where the Stygians would build dazzling pyramids and rule Egypt.
Which is to say this: As dark as S&S feels in the moment, as much as it lacks that tangible "Relief" at the end of the story where the Status Quo is resumed and goodness reigns... It's still a hopeful setting. Harsh, yes. Cruel, yes. Unjust, yes. But one where the Hero rises up and defeats the Sorcerer. Or the Evil King. Or destroys the ancient Book of the Dead. Where the demon is banished to the pits of hell, and men might know a slight reprieve from the horrors beyond the gates.
We've hit on Conan a lot, and Dark Sun a bit... how about Beastmaster?
-Classic- Swords and Sorcery with the main character as a Ranger, essentially. Animal Companions, Melee Combat, a little range. Fighting against a cruel sorcerer, his horrid witches, his tormented monsters, and more. Aided, in the end, by inscrutable monstrous entities that devour humans in moments and discard their bones on the ground.
And at the end... the world is brighter for his intervention. The evil Sorcerer is dead. The Good King is also dead, but others will rise to take up the role of leadership.
And then there's the Sequel!
... of which we shall not speak.
But here's the other big thing to note about Swords and Sorcery: It does not have to happen in a Desert.
Krull? Swords and Sorcery. Ladyhawke? Swords and Sorcery.
WILLOW. Swords and Sorcery. Freaking -Willow-. Willow Ufgood, Mad Martigan, Fin Raziel, and even Sorsha, the daughter of the evil queen, Bavmorda.
The Existential Crisis comes in multiple forms. There's Fin Raziel realizing she's not a "Beautiful Young Woman". There's Sorsha realizing her loyalties lie with the cause of good. There's Mad Martigan realizing that there are things to fight for more important than the gold to line his pocket. There's Willow, who began the entire thing just trying to get rid of a Daikini Baby forced to become a "Great Sorcerer, Greater than You!" in order to achieve his goals. All of them battling against Bavmorda, whose Magic is so incredible she can turn an entire army into Swine! Who calls out to dark powers beyond mortals. Where Fin Raziel never cries out to the equivalent "Good Entities Beyond". The closest we get to that is a Fairy Queen setting a couple of Brownies on a quest.
You see that? That's the big cruel magic of the world used against an entire army without a single Gandalf among them. It's all Willow can do, using a powerful artifact, to keep himself from being turned into a tiny piglet, like the Brownies. And the great and terrible power that Bavmorda is calling on, something beyond all mortals, beyond our world, reaching down from the stars and the sacrifice to offer her insane and otherworldly power. And in the end Bavmorda is slain, a kingdom of statues are made human, again, and Elora Dannon will be raised as a Princess... Willow just goes home. Mad Martigan is becoming a general and Sorsha has to learn a whole new way of life. Fin Raziel has to become a Teacher and essentially a Grandma when she missed out on everything from 20-something to 70-something.
Yeah, with the Nelwyn and the Brownies you could certainly argue it's more "General Fantasy" than Sword and Sorcery. But if that's the case Dark Sun and Primeval Thule aren't Sword and Sorcery, either, 'cause they've got Elves and Dwarves and stuff. And it's definitely -way- lower Magic than either of those settings, as well.
Sometimes in S&S there's "No feeling of hope for a brighter tomorrow". Or hope only in a small way. But the big reason for that, the huge separator between Sword and Sorcery and High Fantasy is this: S&S Quests are generally -personal- rather than -global-.
When you run Tyranny of Dragons you're stopping Tiamat from Conquering the World. It's a big reality-altering horrible event that would end everything. When you watch the Mythica Movies you know that they're trying to stop Matt Mercer from killing the Gods and attaining Apotheosis for himself by killing everyone else on the planet as a Death-God. Lord of the Rings is all about keeping Sauron from reclaiming the One Ring and conquering all the world.
When Conan stands at the top of the pyramid and tosses the head of Thulsa Doom down the steps, much to the dismay of his acolytes, the world is not saved. Only the people who Thulsa Doom would have killed. (Okay, we all know that James Earl Jones was really playing Thoth-Amon and they gave him the name of Kull's Lich antagonist for no apparent reason, but the point stands).
Dar the Beastmaster saves the village, saves the princess, ends the threat of the evil sorcerer... but what does that -do- for the world that still has the no-mouth bat-wing people-digesting monsters? Not a whole lot. The status quo has been restored for the little village with no more human sacrifices... but that's all.
That doesn't mean that Dar and Conan have done nothing that matters. It just means that the scale of the good that they have done is -personal-. On a human level rather than a cosmic level. Because like Existentialist Nihilism that pushes us to re-evaluate our existence not on a Cosmic Scale, or a Geologic Scale, or even a Global scale... Their actions, their heroism, is only measured against themselves and the world they live in. The people around them, and the good or evil that is done to them, "deserved" or otherwise.
Last edited:
