Exp reward chart is really beginning to annoy me

[Kalendraf]

I'm beginning to really dislike the experience chart for rewarding party's for combat. Maybe it's the CR's that are out of whack, but something just doesn't make sense. Here's an example:

I'm running my own modification of Tomb of the Lizard king, greatly shrinking the rooms and encounters and making it into a much smaller tomb w/o priests or bandits, etc. And I'm tweaking the monsters somewhat as well. Party is avg of 9th level (8th, 3x 9th, 2x 10th). First room they explore is a lizardman tomb which is occupied by 6 Lizardman-wights (CR4) and 3 Gargoyles (CR4). Despite being surprised by the gargoyles, the party plows thru this room in about 3 rounds (and less than a half hour of gameplay) w/o taking a single scratch. A total of 2 spells (shield and a monster summoning) were used. I don't have my DMG handy, but the exp for this encounter was something close to 3K I think.

Next room is a large sunken room with a high ceiling occupied by a Young Adult Black dragon (book says CR8, Sean Reynold's suggest CR9). This encounter is extremely difficult. It lasts over 10 rounds (and about 3 hours of gameplay), and in the process a number of characters took large amount of damage from acid. One character was charmed by the dragon's charm person spell (1st level sorcerer). Party used almost all of their main offensive spells and rolled badly against the Dragons Spell Resistance (SR17). The charmed ranger nearly killed the party sorcerer. And when characters blew saving throws, they rolled for their items and 6 magic items wound up being destroyed by the acid (several 1's and 2's were rolled!) including +2 Breast Plate, +2 Short bow, +2 buckler, cloak of charisma, belt of constitution and boots of striding. [Note - I'm using the rules as presented in the DMG and PHB regarding item saves vs. area effect spells and elemental damage in his campaign] Finally, the party was victorious, and drove off the dragon (dealt 122 damage out of 152 hit points). They got the dragon's treasure, but it didn't come close to compensating for the lost items. And to top it off, the experience gained from the CR9 challenge is less than 3K.

This just doesn't make sense. Dragons are supposed to be kick-ass, and this one truly was (maybe I DM'ed it TOO WELL?) and the CR ratings or at least the reward for them just seem way too small. Meanwhile, the challenge presented in previous tomb was almost too easy, yet the party will wind up with as much or more exp from that fight, so again this seems out of whack.

Does the exp reward chart need to be fixed?

 

[Zappo]

I don't know anything about the experience chart. I never used it. Actually, I never read it. I frankly have no idea of how to calculate XP for a battle according to the DMG.

I just figure out an appropriate number depending on how long the adventure was and how well the players played, and that's it.

You see, the experience charts, just like CRs, are a method to approximate something that is incredibly complex. And, just like CRs, I don't trust the approximation to be correct. I don't make this a WotC's fault; I doubt that something better could have been made.

In my opinion, it's better to abandon the claims of correctness and use them as very generic guidelines. That is, assuming that XP for overcoming challenges is what you want - I, for example, give XP for clever playing and good roleplaying.

 

[0-hr]

You really had a Charmed character try to kill a comrade? And your players rolled SIX natural ones on Reflex saves (followed by failed item saves) during the combat? I don't know if I would call that DMing TOO WELL...

As for the CR system, it blances out over time. Given the campaign as a whole, does it seem about right that your characters have reached ninth level at this point? If so, then things are working out just fine.

 

[Asmo]

Hello Kalendraf!
I must say that I´ve have the same problem. I´ve run Sunless Citadel and even pre-made encounters doesn´t make any sense.
It´s the CR:s that mess things up, I belive.
It´s a huge difference between a CR 2 and a CR 2.
I have to look at each encounter individually and see how much each encounter is REALLY worth.
A bugbear is a CR 2, so is a Thoqqua.
My players were just one attack away from a TPK (the fight vs the Thoqqua), while the bugbears was an easy match for the party.
Asmo

 

[Scion]

I'm just going to drop a few opinions, hopefully nothing will go too far amiss

Just as an overall look it seems pretty decent, maybe a bit less than you hoped for on the first and a bit more on the second, but over all a good time. The party had a battle where they could feel their power, and another where they were shown that even that power could fail. Good stuff!

Comments on the party though, there are 6 of them, this will cause their actual power to be somewhat above their average. Because of this I am not surprised at all that 6 wights and 3 gargoyles were able to be pushed aside. Assuming that the party has sufficient magical weapons (+1 or better for everyone), and looking at the items that were destroyed, then it would seem to be a chump battle... something to be used as a warm-up.. mostly because both of these creatures are at the low end of their respective CR's and your party is incredibly powerful compared to them.

Effectively the first round probably went by with most of the wights being destroyed, second round jumped by gargoyles while all of the other wights were killed and possibly even one of the gargoyles.. at which point the fight was essentially over

Again though, that sounds good to me, look up the experience, but count the party as being slightly higher than their average (because they are) and divide it into the extra people.. the amount given will be quite a bit less. (just from a brief look I would say 10th level party, 7 CR4 creatures, 2625 exp divided by 8 people is about 328 exp each) so give them all 300 for that encounter (since they are probably just a tad over 10th average) and hopefully they enjoyed the encounter

The dragon though.. lots and lots of 'very' bad rolls makes it hard to determine the CR correctly overall it seems like a good battle. No one died, lost a few (replaceable) items. Made an enemy for future occasions, looted a hord. (if you are really worried about the lost items, perhaps they can find a specially hidden horde.. a place where this dragon was keeping a few of its eggs for saftey but had to flee too quickly, these can be worth a fortune)

Generally Dragons are the top of the top for the CR given (or one or two higher as is generally the case when they have full manuverabilty and use of all of their attacks, which this one did it seems) so lets say that it was a CR 9 as you said, but the party rolled really poorly I'd say a boost of about 1 for being in its home turf and being able to use everything to its own advantage.. so between 400 and 500 exp. Total of 700 - 800.. not bad for a days work, and fun had by all

sorry it went on so long will try to be more brief in the future..lol

 

[Joshua Randall]

I am also in the camp that ignores CR and prefers to hand out experience points more for story than for hacking things up. However...

I think part of the problem is that low-HD monsters en masse are not as much of a challenge as one higher-HD monster (usually also higher CR). A dragon takes a long time to die, and during that time, its ability to deal out damage doesn't degrade -- even with only 30 HP left (about 20% max) it's still a dragon. Whittling down the 9 previous creatures (wights and gargoyles) to 20% max leaves only 2 creatures, pushovers for the PCs.

However, the CRs do not reflect this. Defeating nine CR 4 creatures is as good, experience point-wise, as defeating a single CR 9 creature even though the combats are not of similar difficulty. That's the problem. I would scale experience points based on the (admittedly subjective) difficulty the PCs have with the combat.

By the way, if you have your conversion notes for Tomb of the Lizard King I would love to get a copy of 'em!

 

[scadgrad]

CR & ECL probs

CR & ECL probs are quite common & one of the primary gripes that most DMs have about the difficulties of running a 3E campaign. They are a loose guide & by no means entirely accurate.

I'm with Scion on the 1st encounter. A party w/ 6 characters in it is substantially more powerful than a similar leveled party of 4. They should & did wipe out those scrubby CR4 critters w/ very little effort. The ep reward is there to simply allow the PCs to advance at a somewhat predictable level. Sure they all got around 600 eps each ( 7 CR4 critters for a 9 lev group) for that little scrum, but that still leaves them about 90% short of their next levels so no biggie.

As for the Dragon encounter, well again I think Scion has the way of it. A tough encounter in which the party rolled poorly & the BSM rolled very well. No one died & for the most part the group lives to fight another day.

I'm not sure how you adjudicated the item saving throws since you only check those if a '1' is rolled on the saving throw. Could it be that you were in error there?

The chart & system is fine. It's meant to be used long term & may have a hiccup or two in the short term, but those 'smooth out' over the course of a long campaign. At least that's been my experience over the course of the 2 campaigns I've ran since the release of 3rd. I was a bit concerned at first, but sticking to table 7-1 has been fine for our group.

 

[Xeriar]

Charm Person is not powerful enough to make someone get a trusted friend (read: fellow PC) killed - that's what Dominate Person is for, and calculations suggest that the Gargoyle encounter was CR 8 = 2400 / 6 = 400 XP per person.

And if the character rolls a 1 on his save, his items still get to save, a +2 item should get a +5 bonus...

Dragon CR's are seriously underrated, black & blue dragons especially. Should be CR 11 or so.

 

[Rel]

After running my first few adventures in 3E, I decided to chuck the XP system and use a home grown one that we had been using for a long time with Rolemaster. If you think the CR charts look screwy with the average party, try running a solo campaign sometime. It gets really wonky.

Anyway, here is the XP system we us and you are welcome to take it or leave it:

XP system used by Rel

First, I must note that most of the credit for this system should go to the player who runs Speaks with Stone in my current campaign. He originally designed it to replace the clunky xp system for Rolemaster and since then, he and I have both tweaked and refined it. It works like this:

First, there's a chart that looks sort of like this:

___Combat____________________________________
___Enchantment_______________________________
___Creation____________________________________
___Skills______________________________________
___Puzzle____________________________________
___Sacrifice____________________________________
___Learned____________________________________
___Character__________________________________
___Goal____________________________________
___Social____________________________________
___Melee____________________________________

___x X

The players each have a copy of this chart for every session. As we go along they write down things that their character has done in a particular category in the big blank to the right.

At the end of the session, they give me the sheets and I "grade their papers". In doing so, I will put "tic marks" in the small blanks to the left if they have fulfilled the requirements for the category. At the bottom I total up all the marks they received and then apply a multiplier based on their current level (represented by the X in the chart above). Currently, the formula I use for the multiplier is 50+(character level x 15).

On average, I'd say the players get around 7 marks per session. If a 5th level player gets 7 marks they would get 875 experience points for the session (the multiplier for a 5th level character is 125 per the above formula).

In practice this meant that it took around 3 sessions for everyone to make 2nd level. On average, it has taken approximately one session longer to reach each of the successive levels than it did to get to 2nd (i.e. 4 more session to make 3rd, 5 more sessions to make 4th, etc.).

When I say that 7 marks is average for a session, I mean precisely that. There have been sessions where some characters only got 4 or 5 marks. And there have been some sessions where they got 10 or 11 marks. It all depends on how involved you are in the game.

Let me give a few details about how I grade the various categories.

Combat - I usually give out one mark for every "minor" combat the group takes part in and two for a "major" combat. These are rather subjective definitions but I'm comfortable with them.

Enchantment - If a character casts at least half their normal spell allotment or uses the powers of most of their magic items, I give them a mark here. If a character goes through their whole spell selection more than once, I usually give them a second point. It has been argued that this category heavily favors the spell casters over the non spell casters but there are other categories that the spell casters are not as likely to get so that doesn't bother me. YMMV.

Creation - The characters get points here for using any craft skills to create things in the game. Sometimes I have given a point if one character in particular was the mastermind of an elaborate plan. Also, I give points here if the player contributes to the game in a material way, such as painting figures, drawing maps for areas of the campaign the characters know about or bringing extensive background material about a topic important to the game (perhaps some stuff they found about Roman architecture, ancient weaponry, mining techniques or anything else that helps bring detail and life to the campaign).

Skills - This is the category the Rogues love. If a character uses most of their skills during a session, they get credit for it here, provided they aren't already getting credit for it elsewhere.

Puzzle - This category represents the character solving a puzzle in game. It applies to elaborate traps and to unraveling the sinister plot of the evil mastermind. I should mention that I don't have that many elaborate traps in my campaign and the evil masterminds are pretty good at hiding their plots so I don't wind up handing out many points in this category.

Sacrifice - This represents heroism in the face of bad odds, putting your character at risk for innocents or helpless party members or giving up something for the greater good. This is one category in which the fighter types tend to outperform the spell casters.

Learned - This category reflects new information that the party has uncovered that is of general interest or specific importance to the plot. This is one that they get credit for almost every session.

Character - This is another point they should be getting every session because it reflects how they portray the personality of their character. Exhibiting the quirks, flaws and peculiarities of your character will always get you a point here. If you have a session where the quintessential personality of your character is captured in almost every scene, you'll get two points here.

Goal - Characters get points here for accomplishing major party goals as well as minor goals the character sets for themselves. I have the players tell me their goals in advance (or else they don't get credit for them) which gives me an indicator as to which way the campaign will likely be headed.

Social - They get credit mostly for interacting with NPC's in meaningful ways. I don't usually give credit for interactions within the party but I sometimes will if one of the characters shares a story or other details from their background that the other party members didn't already know.

Melee - We recently added this category and you get points here for each combat where you spent a majority of the time face to face with the enemy. It gives the fighter types a bit of a boost in relation to the spellcasters or those who favor archery.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: This system may not work for everyone! But I think it has several things going for it that work really well for me and the group I game with.

First, I never have to use the CR system in the DMG to figure out xp. I don't have to crack a book while I'm giving out experience because everything I need is on their sheet or in my head.

Second, it rewards the players for doing things besides combat. If some kind of encounter is important to the campaign, the players don't feel any need to rush through it to get to the combat. They know that they will be rewarded so long as what they're doing is relevant to the story, whether it be fighting monsters, conducting a diplomatic mission, celebrating the birthday of a loved one or doing espionage.

Third, it keeps the players focused on the game if they record stuff on these sheets during play. They may notice that they haven't put anything in the blank next to "Character" yet and that reminds them that they should be putting more of their character's personality into the session. If they haven't put anything in the "Goal" category yet, maybe they need to focus on what the group is trying to accomplish and not get side tracked by looting a room full of dead goblins.

Anyhow, if you have any more questions about the system, I'll be happy to answer them and you're obviously free to use it if you like.

 

[Bhaal]

And I was just about to mention the Rolemaster experience system and how it's even more flawed than 3E. Actually it's a pretty good level-less system, but it has some serious flaws especially when it comes to combat. I like your system, and I think I might adopt a modified version of it for my group. I'll give the same experience for hack and slash ala the DMG, but the goals, interaction, character, learning, etc are great for defining non-combative playing. I try to give bonuses out for when someone has a bright idea, does something heroic, etc but it's hard to be fair. This way people can put down what they feel they did so I can keep my focus on other things, and when they submit those it doesn't force me to try and recall everything that everbody did.

As for the original post, be sure to give out a lump sum of experience after encounters like that. That way the PCs won't feel like the experience they get is off-balanced. As stated, the chart is smooth in the long term; one fight was easy, another was tough, each gave about the same experience so it averages out in the end. Just make sure you give them the experience in the end so they don't notice the short term imbalance. If you've read dungeoncraft, there's a section where combat is described in three types: romps, atrition(sp), and knock down drag-out. Romps are when the players get to kick some butt and show off, atrition is where the players have a decent fight, taking some lumps but also dishing them out, and knock-down drag-out are the ones similiar to that dragon encounter, where things simply aren't looking good for the party. Try to include all three of these here and there (usually making the last a finale), and it'll average out in the end.