Expanded ECL rules!

[Anubis]

My reasoning for using 0.4 was that despite these HD being the worst in the book, at lower levels they still boost a PCs power significantly. Using 1/3 would not pose much of a problem in this regard, seeing as the high cost for weak powers in UK's system (all are 1/2, even fire resistance 5) would balance things out at the lower levels, and HD mean less at the higher levels. Going down to 1/5 seems too low IMHO, unless you use the minimum ECL equals HD rule at lower levels (a 10 HD intelligent vermin is not ECL +2).

I am still considering this one, but I'm leaning toward no on that issue, simply because it does not accurately reflect power levels under most circumstances. 10 HD for an Outsider gives MUCH more than 10 HD for a Vermin.

Nothing else at all considered, such as ability scores and SAs and SQs . . . Well, take a Medium Vermin with all 10s in ability scores and NO SAs and SQs . . . With 10 HD, that would indeed be only ECL +2, because you get few skills and no feats.

But why this separation for the Zombies and Skeletons??

Unlike other Undead, Skeletons and Zombies get NO skills, one feat each TOTAL, and are completely brainless. Far inferior to all other Undead.

what constitutes a single power?

That is part of the very thing we're debating.

are racial skill bonuses considered in the system?

I would say no because skill bonuses aren't powerful enough to be considered. I would count Tumble, maybe, and definitely Iaijutsu Focus, but not the others.

Final note, my current impression is that my system more accurately reflects the old DMG values and should be used at ECLs below +10, whereas these two systems work better for the higher levels (making all powers the same value seems to compare a monster better to an equal level wizard or cleric than my static system does).

We'll hopefully be able to answer these questions very soon.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm trying to have a serious discussion here. Shots like that aren't needed. I would be happy to consider any actual input you decide to put into the discussion.

Calm down! I was just trying to interject some humor into an otherwise-heated discussion. It wasn't a "shot" at anyone.

See my point? I group them by what they get per Hit Die.

I have always worked this very differently. Rather than assign a value to a single HD, I assign values to hit points (and number of hit dice, if Con isn't --), skill points (and max skill points), feats, etc. I find this is more effective.

Otherwise, undead HD are valued too little for the first one, which comes with many immunities, and too much for the later ones - they're inferior to Beasts past the initial immunities.

 

[Anubis]

Calm down! I was just trying to interject some humor into an otherwise-heated discussion. It wasn't a "shot" at anyone.

Ah, okay. Well it's not a "heated" discussion. I consider it a healthy debate. This IS something that needs to be 100% fixed, and I am skeptical that UK's current revisions do everything that is necessary.

I have always worked this very differently.

I will address each of your points and explain why I am against handling it that way.

Rather than assign a value to a single HD, I assign values to hit points (and number of hit dice, if Con isn't --),

Hit points from Constitution is taken into account with the ECL modifiers for ability scores, so introduing it here would mean counting it twice.

skill points (and max skill points), feats,

These are taken into account in our ECL modifiers for Hit Dice. Skill points are not important enough to get their own modifier, and feats are a function of Hit Dice/Levels and thus should not receive their own modifier either.

etc. I find this is more effective.

Otherwise, undead HD are valued too little for the first one, which comes with many immunities, and too much for the later ones - they're inferior to Beasts past the initial immunities.

Immunities for type are taken into account with special abilities (SAs and SQs), and thus should not be dealt with at the same time as Hit Dice.

Anyway, that's about it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

The reasons I set Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid within the '+1/2 ECL/HD' parameters was: firstly, that they were closer to the rest than they were to Dragon/Outsider and assigning too many fractions would be self-defeating. You want something that can be determined at a glance yet still gets the job done. Challenge Ratings are never going to be wholly accurate anyway.

Remember the golden rule regarding Challenge Ratings: "Its not important to be right, but its important you are not wrong!".

So if we look at Anubis and Soldarins scores; to me a difference of 0.1 is irrelevant when calculating a CR that in all likelihood is a 'best guess' anyway.

So that simply overcomplicates issues unnecessarily.

 

[Anubis]

Hi all!

The reasons I set Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid within the '+1/2 ECL/HD' parameters was: firstly, that they were closer to the rest than they were to Dragon/Outsider and assigning too many fractions would be self-defeating. You want something that can be determined at a glance yet still gets the job done. Challenge Ratings are never going to be wholly accurate anyway.

Remember the golden rule regarding Challenge Ratings: "Its not important to be right, but its important you are not wrong!".

So if we look at Anubis and Soldarins scores; to me a difference of 0.1 is irrelevant when calculating a CR that in all likelihood is a 'best guess' anyway.

So that simply overcomplicates issues unnecessarily.

The thing is, with all due respect, you're wrong in this case. Magical Beasts and Monstrous Humanoids are closer to Dragons and Outsiders than all the others, and so should be in the group by themselves, or with Shapechangers.

The rest are a bit below that.

Also, all you need to do for mine is multiply the Hit Dice by the percentage and round down, and you get the modifier, simple!

The ONLY thing that matters for Hit Dice is BAB, saves, skills, and feats, nothing more. The rest is considered later.

I figure we needed to take this one step at a time to get it right, instead of creating whole systems at a time. We'll deal with SAs and SQs later.

 

[Upper_Krust]

The thing is, with all due respect, you're wrong in this case. Magical Beasts and Monstrous Humanoids are closer to Dragons and Outsiders than all the others, and so should be in the group by themselves, or with Shapechangers.

The rest are a bit below that.

Yes magical beasts and monstrous humanoids are closer to Dragons/Outsiders than the rest but what I mean is that on a scale between 'The Rest' and Dragons/Outsiders they are closer to 'The Rest'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Have you reviewed your blatant errors (with regards the Pit Fiend; Solar and Tarrasque)? Naturally you can't have condemn a fellows work unless you have something superior. Equally you can't have a system that works for some creatures and not others.

Speaking of mistakes I should have mentioned I work the Tarrasque out to be CR24 (ECL29). I was getting my ECLs and CRs mixed up.

I know you assign special abilities and qualities differently than I; regardless of which I still say that there should be no +1/5 HD category. Even a token glance at the Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin section is enough to tell me that figure is wrong (As Soldarin also mentioned).

 

[Anubis]

Yes magical beasts and monstrous humanoids are closer to Dragons/Outsiders than the rest but what I mean is that on a scale between 'The Rest' and Dragons/Outsiders they are closer to 'The Rest'.

My Hit Dice ECL modifiers show exactly that. Thus the 20% drop.

 

[Anubis]

I know you assign special abilities and qualities differently than I; regardless of which I still say that there should be no +1/5 HD category. Even a token glance at the Animals, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin section is enough to tell me that figure is wrong (As Soldarin also mentioned).

All I know, really, is that there needs to be five categories, because there are five "levels of power" within the categories of creatures.

The 1/5 one does seem a bit low, at least sometimes, but this all must be balanced out with the special abilities.

Perhaps this:

3/4 (75%)
3/5 (60%)
3/6 (50%)
3/7 (42%)
3/8 (37%)

Divide HD by the number on right, then multiply the result by the number on the left. That sound better?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hit points from Constitution is taken into account with the ECL modifiers for ability scores, so introduing it here would mean counting it twice.

Obviously, I take this into account.

These are taken into account in our ECL modifiers for Hit Dice. Skill points are not important enough to get their own modifier, and feats are a function of Hit Dice/Levels and thus should not receive their own modifier either.

These are taken into account unequally. A 10-HD outsider and 10-HD magical beast have the same max skill cap, but different ECL mods. Ditto for feats.

Immunities for type are taken into account with special abilities (SAs and SQs), and thus should not be dealt with at the same time as Hit Dice.

That's good to hear - but then why are undead HD more valuable than beast HD?