Super Girl
First Post
GoodKingJayIII said:
Yea, we removed Jedi from the campaign unless it was an all Jedi Campaign.
Experience with Jedi
- Thread starter GoodKingJayIII
- Start date
Yea, we removed Jedi from the campaign unless it was an all Jedi Campaign.
GoodKingJayIII
First Post
While I hope that worked for you, it's not really the kind of answer I'm looking for. I don't like taking options away from my players.
humble minion
Legend
I haven't had too many problems, and I've been running a mixed Jedi/non-Jedi campaign for nearly two years now. The VP drain is one balancing factor, but it's one that mostly affects Jedi who try to do truly spectacular things, like telekinetically throwing starships at people or Force Striking a dozen droids at once. More significant is the fact that Jedi have to devote a lot of skill points to Force skills if they expect to be any good at them, so they'll often need support from more rounded characters to accomplish everyday tasks. Your group's pilot, computer expert, and so on will almost certainly end up being a non-Force user.
In close combat, Jedi are supreme - which is as it should be. While other characters can rival their damage output, nobody can get close to their Defense, especially once they use enhance Ability to boost their Dex. Against a big mob of weak opponents they can get bogged down through sheer numbers whereas a soldier with an autofire weapon or a grenade launcher would be able to clear the decks quickly. Jedi are by far the most effective against single powerful enemies though. My main concern is that the deadliness of the lightsaber when combined with Battlemind bonuses and the general superiority of attack over defense, particularly once the Jedi is high enough level to add a couple of dice of damage, means that climactic fights tend to be short and sharp than the dramatic epics that they should be. This problem is doubled if the Jedi has Improved Critical - I STRONGLY recommend disallowing this feat. It tends to reduce fights to a form of who-rolls-a-crit-first roulette. Not fun.
In close combat, Jedi are supreme - which is as it should be. While other characters can rival their damage output, nobody can get close to their Defense, especially once they use enhance Ability to boost their Dex. Against a big mob of weak opponents they can get bogged down through sheer numbers whereas a soldier with an autofire weapon or a grenade launcher would be able to clear the decks quickly. Jedi are by far the most effective against single powerful enemies though. My main concern is that the deadliness of the lightsaber when combined with Battlemind bonuses and the general superiority of attack over defense, particularly once the Jedi is high enough level to add a couple of dice of damage, means that climactic fights tend to be short and sharp than the dramatic epics that they should be. This problem is doubled if the Jedi has Improved Critical - I STRONGLY recommend disallowing this feat. It tends to reduce fights to a form of who-rolls-a-crit-first roulette. Not fun.
Tyler Do'Urden
Soap Maker
Jedi are balanced in games run by GMs who know what they're doing. If a DM tries to out-Jedi the Jedi, on the other hand (I.E. throw them into lightsaber battles with Sith Lords every session), it isn't going to work- this plays right into the Jedi's strengths. They need an occasion to show off, but if you give them too much, they will overshadow everyone else.
Also, remind the Jedi- forcefully, if necessary- that the Force is not to be used like a can opener. Episode II illustrated the dangers in excessive force use- contrast the four major Jedi characters, for a moment:
-Yoda: Only uses the force when absolutely necessary- when deep in meditation, or in battle with a Sith Lord. He doesn't use it to float around the Jedi temple, impress people with magic tricks, or even help himself walk! After his battle with Dooku, he picks up his gimer stick and walks away- he knows the dangers of using the force indiscriminately and arrogantly.
-Mace Windu: Mace is over eight centuries younger than Yoda, but he's just as careful with the force. While he wields it like a pro on the battlefield, he never betrays any desire to use it anywhere else.
-Obi-Wan Kenobi: Being a young knight, Obi-Wan uses the force more liberally than his senior counterparts, but still within reason. Mace or Yoda probably wouldn't bother to use mind tricks on a random drug pusher in a club, for instance.
-Anakin: Anakin is a prime example of how NOT to be a force user. He does tricks to impress Amidala, goes into a force rage and slices up a village of sand people, and generally shows no restraint with his powers.
If your players are playing their Jedi like Anakin, PENALIZE THEM. Start handing out Dark Side points for small infractions. Tempt them with power. And then- when they truly fall:
Take away the character.
Yes, you heard me. One of the only things I liked better about d6 Star Wars than d20 was the lack of PC Darksiders, which are by their very nature unconstrainable (and no, the gradual stat loss isn't really sufficient to discourage abuse. Maybe if the stat loss was increased from one point to 1d6, perhaps...). If they fall to the darkside, it's game over- their Jedi lost.
Hold Jedi to their code, and they're fine characters.
Also, remind the Jedi- forcefully, if necessary- that the Force is not to be used like a can opener. Episode II illustrated the dangers in excessive force use- contrast the four major Jedi characters, for a moment:
-Yoda: Only uses the force when absolutely necessary- when deep in meditation, or in battle with a Sith Lord. He doesn't use it to float around the Jedi temple, impress people with magic tricks, or even help himself walk! After his battle with Dooku, he picks up his gimer stick and walks away- he knows the dangers of using the force indiscriminately and arrogantly.
-Mace Windu: Mace is over eight centuries younger than Yoda, but he's just as careful with the force. While he wields it like a pro on the battlefield, he never betrays any desire to use it anywhere else.
-Obi-Wan Kenobi: Being a young knight, Obi-Wan uses the force more liberally than his senior counterparts, but still within reason. Mace or Yoda probably wouldn't bother to use mind tricks on a random drug pusher in a club, for instance.
-Anakin: Anakin is a prime example of how NOT to be a force user. He does tricks to impress Amidala, goes into a force rage and slices up a village of sand people, and generally shows no restraint with his powers.
If your players are playing their Jedi like Anakin, PENALIZE THEM. Start handing out Dark Side points for small infractions. Tempt them with power. And then- when they truly fall:
Take away the character.
Yes, you heard me. One of the only things I liked better about d6 Star Wars than d20 was the lack of PC Darksiders, which are by their very nature unconstrainable (and no, the gradual stat loss isn't really sufficient to discourage abuse. Maybe if the stat loss was increased from one point to 1d6, perhaps...). If they fall to the darkside, it's game over- their Jedi lost.
Hold Jedi to their code, and they're fine characters.
Khorod
First Post
That Kel Dor was Scout/Force Adept/Noble.
And regardless of certain problems with the build, as soon as he started getting proactive force powers, his ability to affect the game tripled, or quadrupled.
Of course, that campaign also had a house rule that sped up the recouperation of Vitality to something like Level/10 Minutes.
And regardless of certain problems with the build, as soon as he started getting proactive force powers, his ability to affect the game tripled, or quadrupled.
Of course, that campaign also had a house rule that sped up the recouperation of Vitality to something like Level/10 Minutes.
Not true. A Tech Specialist can ruin your day if controlled by a crafty player. I'm in a campaign where the Tech Specialist routinely hacks computerized hardware (droids, vehicles, computers, ships) right out from under his enemies. He turned a Dark Jedi's war droids against her, melted a squad of mercenaries by venting plasma from a parked ship, and caused an Imperial corvette to space its crew. He rarely participates in stand-up fights, but he has the highest kill score in the party.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Well, recouping 6 times the normal VP would account some for the Force users being somewhat overpowered in your game. It would be like complaining about Sorcerors in D&D being overpowered when the GM lets them recoup spells with an hour of rest. Personally, the 1pt/Lvl/Hr is pushing high end power as it is, and it's the ability to hit them with another encounter only an hour or two later and have them still hurting that makes them partially balanced.
I ran a modern-day low-end "Pulp Heroes/Supers" game once. It went swimmingly until I had a brain-drain and gave one of the PCs Fast Healing 1. While this had little effect on in-combat situations, within a single minute of rest he was almost always fully healed again. I finally had to turn it "off" {Lvl} Rounds after the end of combat because he was always fresh as a daisy the start of each combat.
For my own upcoming game I'm instituting some more rules on Dark Side Points. One, when a PC nets a DSP he also gains a small personality flaw (a la Tales of the Jedi Companion from the WEG version). When he gains another DSP, that flaw increases. The next DSP he gets a new flaw. This is purely role playing, but I'm hoping it will encourage PCs to play up the fact that the Dark Side changes people. And that the other players won't like dealing with that character. I've also said that if anybody's PC becomes Tainted, he'll net an immediate physical tell-tale to the effect and have One Story Arc in which to redeem the PC or lose the PC to the dark side as a new NPC villian in my control. If the Tainted PC gets "un-Tainted" and becomes Tainted again, the PC is automatically lost.
Of course now one of my players is talking about maxing out Move Object and Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder so he can disarm and subdue every foe without harming them in any way so he'll never get DSPs and still be all-powerful.
That's one thing I don't like about the d20 version of this system. In d6, you had a group of 3 skills that govern ALL force powers. So your TK and your Strike and TK Kill are all at a similar level of skill. In the d20 version you can max out Move Object and take absolutely no ranks in Force Strike or Force Grip ... while they're all really just aspects of the same "ability" ... the ability to move objects with the Force. Same for a character that maxes out only Force Strike yet has no ranks in Move Object. Schwa?
--fje
I ran a modern-day low-end "Pulp Heroes/Supers" game once. It went swimmingly until I had a brain-drain and gave one of the PCs Fast Healing 1. While this had little effect on in-combat situations, within a single minute of rest he was almost always fully healed again. I finally had to turn it "off" {Lvl} Rounds after the end of combat because he was always fresh as a daisy the start of each combat.
For my own upcoming game I'm instituting some more rules on Dark Side Points. One, when a PC nets a DSP he also gains a small personality flaw (a la Tales of the Jedi Companion from the WEG version). When he gains another DSP, that flaw increases. The next DSP he gets a new flaw. This is purely role playing, but I'm hoping it will encourage PCs to play up the fact that the Dark Side changes people. And that the other players won't like dealing with that character. I've also said that if anybody's PC becomes Tainted, he'll net an immediate physical tell-tale to the effect and have One Story Arc in which to redeem the PC or lose the PC to the dark side as a new NPC villian in my control. If the Tainted PC gets "un-Tainted" and becomes Tainted again, the PC is automatically lost.
Of course now one of my players is talking about maxing out Move Object and Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder so he can disarm and subdue every foe without harming them in any way so he'll never get DSPs and still be all-powerful.
That's one thing I don't like about the d20 version of this system. In d6, you had a group of 3 skills that govern ALL force powers. So your TK and your Strike and TK Kill are all at a similar level of skill. In the d20 version you can max out Move Object and take absolutely no ranks in Force Strike or Force Grip ... while they're all really just aspects of the same "ability" ... the ability to move objects with the Force. Same for a character that maxes out only Force Strike yet has no ranks in Move Object. Schwa?
--fje
I know what you mean. When I started that SW campaign I was talking about I said to my DM "I don't want to play a Jedi", I didn't want to be Luke Skywalker, Han Solo or Boba Fet. I wanted to expolre other aspects of the SW universe besides Jedi, smuglers and bounty hunters. Sometimes I think that one of the failings of d20 SW is that it tries too much to emulate the movies.GoodKingJayIII said:
I seem to recall a thread on this exact subject a couple of months back. Maybe someone with the search feature can find it?
Oh yes, I always said that he would be badass if he had survived to level 10 or 12.Khorod said:
Unfortunaetly we were all turned to stone at level 6 :\
But that just reinforces my point that a force user focused on social tasks can be just as scary as any noble or scoundrel likewise focused on social abilities except that if that force user is a jedi consular he has a lightsaber as well.
And yes the DM had a house rule about increased recovery of VP but all that really meant is that the force adept could recover in between fights. Over the course of a single fight he still only had his limited pool of VP to draw on to power both his force powers and to act as his HP and yet IIRC he only went down twice in the entire campaign despite frequently using his force powers. That has led me to believe that even in a by-the-book campaign a Jedi will still mop up close-quarters combat unless he is really reckless with his power use.
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