Expertise, "Fighting Defensively", Tumble, AND YOU!

[phindar]

Mine is a game balance beef. Generally, I think the amount of resources one devotes to something should determine the benefit they gain from it. If you're reserving the option to attack (even at penalties), you're devoting less resources than if you give up all attacks to concentrate on being defensive.

As far as "realism" goes, it's D&D. I'm not sure how much benefit traditional martial arts are going to be versus a house-sized, fire-breathing lizard.

 

[billd91]

Mine is a game balance beef. Generally, I think the amount of resources one devotes to something should determine the benefit they gain from it. If you're reserving the option to attack (even at penalties), you're devoting less resources than if you give up all attacks to concentrate on being defensive.

As far as "realism" goes, it's D&D. I'm not sure how much benefit traditional martial arts are going to be versus a house-sized, fire-breathing lizard.

But the character using combat expertise and fighting defensively is giving up something like 9 points of attack bonus AND has to have devoted a feat to do it (indicating a certain special training focus). None of that is exactly insignificant.

And don't discount traditional martial arts against a dragon. The game assumes they apply. If they didn't, the traditional martial arts of sword play, shield use, or even decent defensive footwork wouldn't be expected to work either, in which case the heroes might as well give up.

 

[Notmousse]

Add it Two Weapon Fighting Defense, +5/+5 defending quarterstaff for an additional 12... (some people argue you can twink out the defending bonus to a pair of spiked gauntlets, and spiked armor as well).

 

[Jerrand Redband]

It's in the book

didn't say they didn't stack said you would need more actions to make it work

in the book under total defense(pg 142) it says "You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack)."

unless you have two attacks or can declare two attacks they can't be used in the same round.

i did notice something new it says under fighting defensively (pg 140) that the bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by CE but it doesn't say the penalties stack?

6 lvl fighter attacking: declare attack on the devensive +2 AC -4 attack
Second attack with CE +7 AC -5 attack????

sorry to vent one of those days

 

[Folly]

Fighting defensively and Combat Expertise confusion stems from poor page layout and bad word choices. Fighting defensively is not an independent action, it is part of the attack action. Since Combat Expertise says "When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee", it becomes part of the attack action or full attack action. Thus if you take an attack action with the fighting defensively option you can still CE since it is still an attack action. They stack since both provide a dodge bonus to your characters AC, and all dodge bonuses stack.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, I'd just like to point out...CE beats Full Defense on its own. Not until the player plunks 5 ranks into tumble (which not many classes get as a class skill --granted, can get it with afeat, but then again...ditto for CE) does Full Defense surpass it. So clearly, the designers saw no problem letting attacking give better defense than not attacking at all. So it isn't even necessarily an issue of CE + Fighting Defensively vs. Full Defense.

And again, I like it that way. Any joe schmo can full defense at level 1. It takes a trained, intelligent fighter a feat expenditure and a five level wait to surpass the level 1 commoner's ability to protect himself, and only by first making a melee attack, which may often mean ending your turn in full attack range.

IMHO, there is no issue here.

 

[Will]

I often like getting tumble for lightly armored melee types because I usually don't feel like blowing the feat, and they rarely have enough Int to qualify.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, you typically need a feat (my favorite option: Martial Study (Distracting Ember)) to make it a class skill and get tumble 5 ranks at the early levels you could have had CE anyway. Otherwise, you're what? Waiting till level 7? Majority of the games I'm in barely reach level 10. Less of an issue if you start high, I guess.