Explain the State of the RPG Industry and 3.5... Please!

[Emiricol]

I agree. I've played without miniatures, and oddly, the rulebooks didn't burst into flames or anything. It was wierd, because I was like, "they are gonna sue us or the books will explode or something" but then that didn't happen and I lost the bet. Damn you, D&D! You cost me $5 when you said it couldn't be done!

 

[Sir Whiskers]

...You have misread and misunderstood. It says nothing of the kind. It suggests that miniatures are the best means to visualize the action, that the game assumes their use and is written from that standpoint. It does NOT say that they are NECESSARY in order to even play...

Just to be fair, JasonT got it right the first time. Quoted from the 3.5 PH:

WHAT YOU NEED TO PLAY
Your group needs these items to play D&D.
*The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual revised core rulebooks. (All players might want to have their own copies of the books.)
*A copy of the character sheet at the back of this book for each player.
*A battle grid. The Dungeon Master's Guide contains one.
*Miniatures to represent each character and the monsters that challenge them.
*A set of dice for each player....

THE PLAYER'S ROLE
...Play wherever everyone feels comfortable and there's a place to set the battle grid and miniatures, roll the dice, and spread out your books and character sheets.

I agree that a battle grid and miniatures are not absolutely necessary to play the game, but Umbran's point that the new editions say otherwise is absolutely correct. There have been a number of discussions on these boards about new players learning the game from the core books. The primary core book, the Player's Handbook, says very clearly that a grid and miniatures are needed (not optional).

edited: got the poster's name wrong (oops... )

 

[barsoomcore]

Fie upon you, Sir Whiskers! How dare you intrude on our verbal jousting with facts!?

 

[Crothian]

So, the say you need something that you actually don't need. You actually don't need copies of the core books with the SRD out there. Copies of the character sheet are not needed as well, a blank piece of paper will work just fine. Each player doesn't need a set of dice, I'd played in many games were people didn't share dice. So, they got a lot of things wrong.

 

[JasonT]

I think the point wasn't that rpgs are doomed, rather that D&D has moved further away from roleplaying with the release of v.3.5 and moved closer to tabletop wargaming.

Yep! That's what I meant!

Basically, I worry that Wizards is choosing to rely more on the "tabletop wargaming" side because they can't lure enough people using the "traditional definition of what a role-playing game is" side.

On the other hand, the argument could be made that D&D was _always_ originally a miniatures game and that now it's returned to its roots. But it was the "role-playing" aspect that made D&D into D&D and not an Avalon Hill game. There _have_ been successful RPGs which didn't have a miniatures component -- "Vampire" comes to mind as the most successful "touchy-feely method RPG" of all time (and I use the word "touchy-feely" in both the good and bad senses of the word ) -- but D&D has always been miniatures-oriented. And I guess by definition, all d20 games are miniatures-oriented, because that's what the rules are fine-tuned for.

Do miniatures & stuff really equal more "mainstream appeal"? ("I'd never sit around a table pretending to be a made-up character, but I'd gladly buy a bunch of cool-looking miniatures!") I don't begrudge Wizards making more money by selling miniatures -- more power to 'em -- but that's just not the "true meaning of RPGing" to me. (I sound like some holiday special about the "true meaning of Christmas".... )

Here's a question for anyone who's tried to introduce newbies to RPGs recently -- how much did they react to the miniatures/tactical battle side, and how much did they react to the "role-playing" side?

I know I'm being a grumpy fan. It's embarrassing, because I know a fan's complaints are virtually pointless. Frankly, I just liked 3rd edition too much, and I forgot that all alliances between fans & companies are necessarily temporary, until the company does something to make money which ticks the fan off.

By the way, sorry I accidentally duplicated one of my posts...

Jason

 

[MerricB]

Here's a question for anyone who's tried to introduce newbies to RPGs recently -- how much did they react to the miniatures/tactical battle side, and how much did they react to the "role-playing" side?

I run 95% of my battles without miniatures. However, almost all of the new players I've introduced to the game have preferred the combat side of things to the role-playing side of things. They might well enjoy the role-playing, but it is the battles that attract them.

As they play more, the role-playing becomes more appealing, but most new players I've seen are more Hack'n'slash than more experienced players.

Cheers!

 

[MrFilthyIke]

=because I dislike the wargaming feel they give the game

Why exactly IS feeling "like wargaming" so bad?

I played in a Mechwarrior campaign where 2 sessions would be RPing, with a shotout here and there, and then the big "mission" or "war" would occur, our characters would hop into their Mechs and it'd convert to a wargame that'd last a few sessions (they were big deals, with many Mechs). We were our own merc company, and had much fun.

I think it's kind of "elitist" to say that wargaming lessens the RP experience. That's like saying LARP is superior because no dice are involved (and there ARE people who say this.

PS: This not aimed at you Mouse, just you said something I've heard many say.

 

[barsoomcore]

JasonT, you seem to have two concerns:

One, that D&D is becoming a miniatures game.
Two, that the deceny standards of the d20 trademark license (which has nothing to do with the SRD, as far as I know) will hurt the gaming industry.

I think you have the first one backwards. WotC is trying to make more money. They seem to think that selling miniatures will do this, and apparently they're hoping to take advantage of D&D's popularity to do so. They're not making changes to the game in order to make it more "miniaturey" (at least, none of the rule changes look like that to me), but they are promoting miniatures as the "best" way to play the game -- presumably in the hopes that D&D players will buy miniatures.

This means nothing to the future or direction of D&D. If miniatures become exceptionally profitable for WotC, expect to see them expand their miniature offerings. But unless and until they start thinking that they can sell more copies of the Player's Handbook if it were a miniature game, your mini-free D&D is safe.

The second one I think you are overstating. The Book of Erotic Fantasy was not crushed, it was released as planned -- just without the d20 trademark logo. I would be surprised to find that this has hurt their sales. Keep in mind that the decency clause is to do with the d20 trademark and NOT the SRD. People can continue to put out any sort of twisted or sensual or whatever sort of d20 game they like -- they just can't put the d20 logo on it unless WotC approves.

Now I think the decency clause is a bad business idea because it exposes WotC to lawsuits should somebody be offended by a d20 logo publication. They have now positioned themselves as responsible for the content of all d20 logo products, which were I their lawyer I would be very, very nervous about. But presumably they had their reasons.

What the fallout on the industry of the clause will be I'm not certain. It doesn't LOOK like everybody's just shut down production because of it, and I'm not seeing a sudden drop in quality of product as a result, so....

I think you're kind of panicking here.

 

[Crothian]

WEll, the first thing to remember is it's your game. Play the game you want. Wizards can try to make this a minatures game all they want, but you don't have to play their version.

 

[barsoomcore]

WEll, the first thing to remember is it's your game. Play the game you want. Wizards can try to make this a minatures game all they want, but you don't have to play their version.

That's correct. You must play MY version.