Explan DMG First Ed. to me!

[Akrasia]

That may be what the voices in your head were saying, but what you actually posted was "It is sad that so many people these days feel the need to have rules for everything, and think it is appropriate to refer to 'common sense' as 'DM fiat'." Now, as I have shown and you have agreed, it is indeed appropriate to refer to what you were calling 'common sense' as 'DM fiat'.

What?
I don't recall agreeing to this (but maybe it's just those voices in my head again).

In any case, you are right that my earlier statement was not as clear as it should have been.

It should have read (and I have edited it to read):

"In short, if one feels the need to use the term 'DM fiat', then both 1e and 3e equally allow for 'DM fiat'."

Presumably your sadness is at least partially lifted, so that's nice. Also presumably, you will respond with some snarky off-topic remark that you think is clever, and that's OK too - if you can't be right, you might as well at least get the last word in. Have a good day.

Have a good day too! (Oh, was that a 'snarky off-topic remark'?)

 

[Akrasia]

... And when I get time, probably not till late tonight, I'll quote here the material from the artifacts/relics sections that you say is so illustrative of the difference....

Whatever thrills you, dude...

 

[Turjan]

I have to believe that if this art were to show up in a d20 product today, most would review said product as having bad art.

Some might say so, yes, but I doubt that this would be a general verdict. That drawing is not bad; it has a few elements that evoke quite strong images, even in its eclecticism. That depends a bit on the environment of the illustration and what it is supposed to show.

 

[Doug McCrae]

One of EGG's major motivations in writing 1st ed was to unify the D&D rules for tournament play, which at the time he saw as being very important. I'd say 1st ed is a lot more forceful about the rules being official than the vast majority of other rpgs, in particular OD&D, which 1st ed was designed to replace, but also 3rd ed.

The 1st ed quote about age that Quasqueton posted backs up this view. It's full of phrases like 'it is necessary' and 'you must'. In contrast the 3rd ed passage simply states the rules without emphasis.

 

[Wormwood]

It's full of phrases like 'it is necessary' and 'you must'. In contrast the 3rd ed passage simply states the rules without emphasis.

That's because the 3e DMG was written in Renton, but the 1e DMG was written on Mount Sinai.

 

[Quasqueton]

That's because the 3e DMG was written in Renton, but the 1e DMG was written on Mount Sinai.

Oh God, that's beautiful. And it pretty much sums up a lot of people's thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.

Quasqueton

 

[Quasqueton]

Whatever thrills you, dude...

I enjoy intelligent and honest comparitive discussion on the various D&D editions. I find putting the actual evidence in the thread to help the discussion, prove points, and put invalid statements to the lie detector.

And since I have a few minutes right now, as the rest of the family takes naps...

AD&D1 DMG:
Mace of Cuthbert: This weapon is said to be that actually used by the Venerable Saint Cuthbert of the Cudgel when he demonstrated the folly of error to the unbeliever. Over the decades since then, holy relics of the Saint himself have been encased within the Mace to give this arm of lawful good a +5 bonus for both hitting and damage as well as disruption effects. Only clerics with 18 strength of lawful good alignment are able to wield this weapon and gain these other powers/effects:

[Quas note: at this point 6 blanks are available for the DM to choose or randomly determine 3 minor benign powers, 2 major benign powers, and 1 side effect.]

D&D3 DMG:
The Mace of Cuthbert: St. Cuthbert, tales say, once walked the earth as a man. When he did, he used a potent weapon to strike against the infidels and evil beings he encountered everywhere he went. Today, this relic appears to be a simple, well-used cudgel, but its simple appearance hides great power. The Mace of Cuthbert has +5 enhancement bonus and functions as a heavy mace with the holy, lawful, and disruption special abilities. The wielder can project searing light from the mace at will, at caster level 20th.

And as an interesting note, that I see as an endearing quality of AD&D1:

AD&D1 DMG:
Notes Regarding Artifacts and Relics: each artifact or relic is a singular thing of potent powers and possibly strange side effects as well. Regardless of how any of these items come into your campaign, only 1 of each may exist. As each is placed by you or found by player characters, you must draw a line through its listing on the table to indicate it can no longer be discovered randomly --- if the dice indicate an item no longer available, you may substitute a clue as to its whereabouts or simply ignore the result so that no magic item is found at all.

D&D3 DMG:
Major artifacts are unique items---only one of each such item exists. . . .

Never introduce a major artifact into a campaign without careful consideration. These are the most potent of magic items, capabale of altering the balance of a campaign.

Quasqueton

 

[VirgilCaine]

Hoo boy, depends what you need really. It's worth reading the whole thing and marking useful pages. Some classic resources (page numbers from the brown cover with red efreet, I don't know if they changed with other printings):

p 13-14 disease and parasitic infestation
p 25-27 value and reputed magical properties of gemstones
p 28-34 hirelings including mercenaries
p 38 acquisition of cleric spells
p 40 theory of spellcasting, shamans and witchdoctors
p 53-55 ships
p 71 combat example
p 82-83 intoxication
p 83-84 insanity
p 89-90 government, social classes, taxes
p 93-94 territory development, peasant revolts
p 94-100 example dungeon (you'll find this very familiar)
p 104-110 monster organisation, nonhuman troops, castles, siege engines
p 112-118 Boot Hill and Gamma World conversions, creation of holy water, spell research, creation of magic items
p 136-155 miscellaneous magic items
p 155-164 artifacts
p 166-168 unusual and intelligent swords
p 169 onwards - Appendices
p 237-240 collected tables.

You forgot the table describing herbs and their uses, reputed magical properties of gems, gem type generation table, and values for other valuable commodities--tapestries, furs, etc.

And the cursed items, like the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity (10% instead neuter the unfortunate soul).
And the nifty magic items that haven't been converted or converted correctly to 3e--Beaker of Plentiful Potions, Bucknard's Everful Purse, Rug of Welcome.

And the variety of artifacts and the fact they had randomly assigned powers. The powers themselves aren't very great in variety or suitability for some of the artifacts, but these are artifacts, the least rule-bound magic item. The variety of destruction methods for artifacts are great.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I find it simply amazing that anyone can prefer the flat, bland prose of 3e to the goofy vocabulary, oddball phrasing and weird grammar of Mr E. Gary Gygax.

Yes, Gygax wrote as if he was writing from Mount Sinai. As a man who can credibly claim to be the creator of our hobby, I feel that he has the right to do that - and I would certainly resent it if the authors of 3e were to try to arrogate to themselves the same authority, because they have not earned it.

I think the only person who can write like Gygax is Gygax. Nobody else on Earth can say "dweomer" without sounding like a total pillock, but somehow, Gygax manages it.

The language and tone is a major part of the system's charm. Another is the sheer inelegance of some of the systems, which have clearly been drawn out in a rush of enthusiasm with little thought given to their impact on the overall system, and then frantically patched until they work. You can virtually see the bits of sticking plaster. Personally I like this - it makes the system feel handcrafted, and totally different from the slick, glossy but impersonal feeling you get from later editions.

 

[Ourph]

Of all of the 1e vs. 3e examples Quasqueton has posted in this thread, I invariably find the 1e examples more interesting (honestly!).