Factors Affecting CR and EL

[Raven Crowking]

Interesting thread.

 

[freyar]

I'm interested in knowing which monsters are over/undervalued for CR (like the ogre mage, for example). So, which critters are the wrong CR, and what is the right value?

 

[Doug McCrae]

Tendriculos in the Monster Manual is seriously under-CRed at 6.

 

[Quartz]

As I recently complained about an adventure which had IMHO a vastly under-CRed monster, I'll bite. The creature in question was CR3 (very difficult) but at 6HD with no opportunity to surprise, I felt that CR5 or even CR6 (almost certainly a TPK) would have been more appropriate. You have to be very careful with CR at very low levels. When in doubt, over-estimate the CR. You can always bring in reinforcements or drop the XP.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Terrain.

It's a huge factor. Like Blarg pointed out, fighting harpies over a cliff is different than fighting them on the ground. Additionally, fighting them in a 10 * 10 room is different. If you have fog, it negates ranged attacks, making melee creatures powerful. If you have a swimmer, the water it swims in almost always gives it an advantage.

It's not a formula, it's a guideline.

 

[gizmo33]

Now as a roleplay encounter things get weird. Let's say our troll has skill ranks in Perform (musical theater) and Knowledge (broadway hits). The troll will not hand over an item the PCs need for a quest until they help the troll put on a performance of The Music Man for the troll's true love. How exactly do we rate this encounter? What level is it appropriate for? As Hussar noted, what if the party is made up of four bards? What if the party has no bards at all? Do we let the PCs make a Perform skill check and call it a day? If they fail the skill check, how are they supposed to get the quest item without killing the troll? Because if they end up killing the troll, the DM may as well have made it a combat encounter.

AFAIK non-combat encounters don't have a system for assigning experience points - CR is only for combat encounters.

I have always assigned XP for non-combat encounters equal to that of an encounter (and in 3E terms - an encounter of CR equal to party level) assuming that:
1. the amount of time to resolve the non-combat encounter is roughly equal to a combat encounter
2. there is something significant to gain or lose in the encounter
3. the PCs did a reasonable job of it, and were mostly successful

To the degree that any of 1-3 is less/more, I adjust accordingly.

In terms of a skill-check type roll, I would guestimate that the DC would be 10 + character level x 1.5. So if the PCs have to beat a DC 20, that's about a Level 6 encounter. If the party has no bards, it will be tougher, but then again combat will be tough for a party of all bards, so it all balances out.

Whether or not you allow a single check to resolve or multiple I really think depends on how you want to design it. Obviously if you want to spend more time on the details of the encounter, set it up as a flow-chart so that a number of skill-checks navigate you through the situation.

'PCs killing the troll' is something that anyone running a DnD game should be ready for (the PCs do carry weapons after all, and most enjoy using them). In the case where the encounter devolves from broadway production to DnD slugfest, then I would give combat experience, and readjust whatever non-combat experience based on a lack of factor #2 above.

 

[I'm A Banana]

CR is only for combat encounters.

Also for:

* Hazards (like green slime)
* Traps
* Environmental effects (like forest fires)
* Diplomacy
* Etc.

CR is overcoming challenges. In monsters, it's usually given to you. In other circumstances, it's more of a DM judgement call.

 

[gizmo33]

Also for:

* Hazards (like green slime)
* Traps
* Environmental effects (like forest fires)
* Diplomacy
* Etc.

CR is overcoming challenges. In monsters, it's usually given to you. In other circumstances, it's more of a DM judgement call.

Oh yea, I forgot traps and hazards. I'm not familiar with the "diplomacy, etc." part though. I vaguely recall some sort of "book of tricks" where a trick (and I suppose a dangerous environment like forest fire might qualify) was given an EL. In general, I support giving non-combat stuff an XP factor, I just have never seen an obvious place in the rules where this is described - only a rather vague mention of "story awards" in the DMG.

 

[maddman75]

I give XP for attendence, essentially. I found that its too slow a reward for it to really change player behaviour anyway, so I simply hand it out based on how fast I want them to level.

I also don't worry about balance, or level appropriate encounters. If you can't beat em, maybe you should run, beg, or barter. You have no assurance you won't meet things that can tear you apart.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Action Points, which are the default in the Eberron Campaign Setting, imo effectively add a level to the party. And NPCs don't get them! Talk about loading the dice.