Factors Affecting CR and EL

It's so nice to find a thread that is just 100% useful from the first post. I'm repeating a couple of things here but:

1. Environment. This is easily the most critical point IMO. Example: fearing that my group would tear through what was supposed to be a climactic encounter in a ruined elven city, I gave the insectoid bad guys the limited ability to teleport through the webs that were strewn about the place. The range was very limited and it was a full-round action... but it still almost resulted in a TPK that I just didn't expect.

2. Awareness. A villain who is buffed and on the defensive is extremely dangerous in the first couple of rounds of a fight, likely to kill at least one PC in my experience. This can turn even a straightforward encounter into a scramble for survival.

3. One-trick parties. My Dragonlance group has a minotaur warrior who makes absolute mincemeat out of most melee opponents with concerted use of massive 2h weapons, grapples, and so-on. Then he was blinded in the first round of 3 straight encounters in a row, causing outright confusion until the party acclimatized.
 

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Hussar said:
Very true Doug. I think it is a bit of a mistake when designing adventures to rely on single monsters. Plus, single monsters tend to be a more boring fight. Either the party gets the drop on it and obliterate it, or it gets the drop on the PC's and one PC dies.

Agreed completely. I don't think I've used a single monster enemy in ages for exactly the reasons you mention. Either option is a poor one. Even when I have a BBEG fight, it's almost never a lone BBEG, but rather one with lots of mook minions or a couple of tough allies (or both).

Much more fun, and tactically interesting, to have small numbers of smaller critters. By and large, two creatures means twice the fun? :)

I would have said twice the pain, but then I'm speaking for the PCs here :]

More seriously, another advantage of two or more creatures is that one can use creatures with different offensive & defensive powers, which means that the PCs have to vary their approach, which makes things more challenging and interesting for the players. It's harder work for the DM, but I think it's worth it.
 
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the Jester said:
Sort of... you could prolly treat the party as APL 6 for purposes of gauging EL when using multiple monsters. I wouldn't throw a higher number of pcs of a lower level against a single monster of that EL as a matter of course, however; that single monster prolly has several attacks that can drop a pc of your level in one round (as in your case), and it may have defenses that they can't really breach.

I've been running huge (up to about 16 pc) groups since the advent of 3e (and before, really) and have learned this from painful experience.

This is very good advice: I don't run for a group that big, but one which has varied from 6 to 8 players who have good stat rolls: and while they can take on hordes of foes without blinking, a single high encounter can be very swingy. Often they get the drop on it (with all those dice rolls, they usually get the first move) but when it goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong.
 

Hussar said:
Much more fun, and tactically interesting, to have small numbers of smaller critters. By and large, two creatures means twice the fun? :)


I tend to agree.

Single monsters are good for some types of encounters, including encounters where you speak to monsters, but single less powerful monsters with additional retainers are almost always more fun.

RC
 

Heh, just an anecdote about big BBEG. At the end of my last campaign, the party went toe to toe with the Tarrasque. In all the years I've seen the beastie, I'd never used him. I remember way, way back in the old MM 2 wanting to use him and never having the chance. When I finally could, I did.

What an unbelievably boring fight. Three rounds in, the party dropped him and, due to some timely Heal spells, actually finished the fight with full hit points. :/ Talk about anti-climactic. Next time I'm using a bloody dragon. :]
 

Dragon published an Ogre Mage Fighter 5 Kensai 3 - a CR 17 encounter with 131 hit points.
This is Dragon screwing up. Neither fighter nor kensai should be associated classes for an ogre mage, so that CR should be 13. (Which, eyeballing it, may still be 1 too high, but it's a lot closer.)
 

You're saying that fighter type classes are not associated classes for a giant? Sure, it's a spell using giant, but, it's still a giant.
 

There are a variaty of things I reutinely fudged with the CR/EL system.

1) NPC classed individuals: The general guideline, that character with X levels in a NPC class was CR X-1 seemed wrong from the offset. Even assuming that they were loaded with magical goodies, I couldn't see how they compared favorably to monsters of the same CR. I regularly treated the CR of an NPC classed individual as being only X/2. So those 6th level orc warriors were generally treated as CR 3, not CR 5. For commoners, I generally relied on X/4, so the 9th level commoner (really, these existed), was all other things being equal considered CR 2 (even though I never had to award experience for PC's killing a 9th level commoner, although it might have come up if I'd been able to run my adaptation of Isle of Dread).

2) PC classed individuals: Many of the PC classes were balanced on the assumption that they had great utility out of combat to match being slightly weak in it. Also, I rarely gave PC classed foes large amounts of treasure on the assumption that if I did, it would end up creating an arms race with the PC's who would acquire all that treasure for themselves. So that 6th level fighter was generally considered to be CR 5, not CR 6, and I generally rated the CR of mid-level NPC theives, monks, and bards at two lower than their level.

On the Ogre Mage argument, I'll chime in to say that I don't think any PC class can be considered in and of itself an associated class of the Ogre Mage. If the CR of a monster is primarily due to innate spell-like ability use and similar things that don't depend on HD, then anything that doesn't enhance its spell-like abilities doesn't directly enhance its effectiveness. In the Ogre Magi's case, that means IMO all PC classes are not associated classes. If I wanted to make a high CR Ogre Mage, I'd not do it by adding class levels. Instead, I'd directly increase its HD, spell resistance, regeneration rate, and innate spell ability - since these are the things that cause it to have its CR in the first place.

3) Large numbers of opponents without level independent attacks and 4 or more CR below party level: I considered a 'level independent attack' to be one that largely ignored the PC's defences so that its still at least somewhat threatening regardless of the level of the PCs. For example, most breath weapon attacks still do half damage to most characters even on a save, and ranged touch attacks ignore most PC's defences. If a monster didn't have a level independent attack, and its CR was ~4 or more below party level I found that it was a cake walk even in large numbers. As a result, I added only +1 to the EL when I doubled the number of foes, rather than +2. In this way, I could have the party face off against a fairly large number of low level foes without flooding the party with XP for an 'easy' fight.

4) Single opponents with low defences: I had very bad experiences with single foes in 3rd edition, and moved away from them the longer I DMed. Typically, if they weren't given some sort of overwhelming defence, they went down hard - often in the first full round of combat with the PC's and if not then in the second. That meant that they typically got off just one attack, which if it missed, turned them into an underwhelming cake walk. If you tried to use the normal monster design guidelines to solve this problem, you ended up with a monster with such overwhelming offense that it risked a TPK. I never found a solution to this I was fully happy with. Typically, I made sure that I'd found some way to up the defences in some manner and hoped for the best. I didn't adjust CR downward because focusing on a single PC could be very threatening if things went the monsters way.

5) Terrain: This wasn't really fudging, because the system mentions it, but I found that I needed to adjust things according to the tactical situation if it was really going to reflect the difficulty. I frequently awarded 200% or even 300% of the normal XP for having to fight in some horrible death trap I'd designed (in rapids, on top of a log jam, in a giant slippery funnel, in quicksand, etc.), or 110% or 120% for having to fight against well prepared foes (archers behind barriers), or just 50% or 75% normal for fighting a foe in terrain that favored the PC's (melee combatants at a distance across an open field).

6) Intelligence of the Foe: Similar to terrain, I tended to fudge the XP award by a small amount depending on how much of my cunning I felt justified bringing into play. Against say animals, the PC was facing a foe that would likely flee if things went the slightest wrong, and which didn't understand magic or missile fire all that well and which would probably be detered by encountering something even as mysterious (to it) as fire. Against zombies, oozes, or plants, the PC was facing a foe that would probably be no threat at all, if the PC could gain some separation from it and employ ranged attacks and which would continue to use straight forward ineffective tactics regardless of the outcome. Against a non-combatant foe (bullywog villagers), the PC was facing something that would spend more time running away than trying to threaten the PC's. So, I'd adjust XP down again if I thought the foe didn't represent as full of a threat as it might otherwise. A pack of wolves encountered randomly in the wilderness was quite a different thing to my mind than a pack of rabid wolves under the influence of some evil power or mind.

Even with that, I was often surprised by the outcome of encounters. The biggest variable was one that I couldn't really control, which was the actions of the players. Sometimes, they'd immediately seize upon a very good plan, and implement it immediately, and my monsters would go down hard. Other times, the party would become confused, party cohesion would begin to break down, individuals would panic, or do very foolish things and suddenly a fight I didn't think exceptionally hard turned into a full fledged rout. In this case, I generally didn't adjust XP, but I did tend to think harder about the factors that had lead to the parties confusion and sometimes factored them into my 'guesstimates' in the future.
 

You're saying that fighter type classes are not associated classes for a giant? Sure, it's a spell using giant, but, it's still a giant.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. The ogre mage is of the Giant type, yes, but that's not its threat to a group. (Look at its primary attack roll, for pity's sake.)

Associated classes are those that build on a creature's strengths. Fighter-type classes don't do that for an ogre mage.
 

On the Ogre Mage argument, I'll chime in to say that I don't think any PC class can be considered in and of itself an associated class of the Ogre Mage.
I think it's arguable, but I wouldn't quibble all that much with your opinion. Per the SRD:

SRD said:
Associated Class Levels

Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.
Note that none of these fits the ogre mage particularly well, though rogue is arguable, given the creature's shapeshifting and invisibility powers.

Still, I would probably say that you're right, and all class levels are unassociated for the ogre mage.

SRD said:
Nonassociated Class Levels

If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.
So the ogre mage fighter 5 / kensai 3 gets CR +2 for the fighter levels, then CR +3 for the kensai levels, for CR 13.
 

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