Factors Affecting CR and EL

[Doug McCrae]

How about improved grapple for the most dangerous mooks possible? Level 1 human warriors could have it. Moral: Don't annoy a wrestler's convention.

 

[Numion]

How about improved grapple for the most dangerous mooks possible? Level 1 human warriors could have it. Moral: Don't annoy a wrestler's convention.

That would make for a challenging fight. Of course, one big make-or-break factor for fights against mooks is flight. Most high-level teams fly, so in open area (= outside / otherwise high roof) any non-flying opponents without ranged fire are screwed.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That would make for a challenging fight. Of course, one big make-or-break factor for fights against mooks is flight. Most high-level teams fly, so in open area (= outside / otherwise high roof) any non-flying opponents without ranged fire are screwed.

Not if they have really long arms.......

 

[shilsen]

I've noticed that myself. Not only that it means the PCs don't get the treasure, double whammy! I'd give all my NPCs javelins of lightning but the players would lynch me.

To go off on a bit of a tangent, something I've done sometimes is give NPCs the benefits of a particular magic item without actually giving them the item. So they're as effective as they should be if fully equipped, but the PCs don't end up with a boatload of items. For example, I might give an NPC a +1 resistance bonus to all saves, but not actually equip him with a Cloak of Resistance.

Not keen on bead of force as it takes a PC out the fight completely, which means the player is reduced to a spectator.

My PCs all have very high saves (each has a permanent +4 resistance bonus to all saves at 13th lvl), so the chances of being trapped were very low, esp. with action points available, three can cast Greater Dispel Magic and another Dispel Magic, one can cast Teleport/Dimension Door and one has a Dimension Door item, so there was literally no chance of them being out of a fight completely. I'm a big fan of effects that temporarily incommode a PC, because (as you've noted) reducing a player to a spectator sucks.

BTW, if a PC does get taken out of a fight early, one simple way to keep the player very involved is to have him roll the dice (in the open) for some of the NPCs. There's usually a great deal of tension created for both the individual player (who's usually really worried about screwing another player's PC with a great roll) and the group. This also works well in situations where only some of the PCs are involved in a fight, e.g. duels, PCs separated, etc.

The 75% hit points thing changes your game a bit, making AoEs less effective than in standard D&D so mooks are more of a threat.

True, and that was a very intentional aim of mine. And it's almost a necessity, since the UA rule I mentioned above means PCs are almost always casting their AoE spells empowered (since it doesn't take a higher level slot).

Those gnolls had very high stats.

Actually, only 1 pt in total more than what they should have had by the RAW. Since they have class levels, they're supposed to use the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8 (before racial modifiers), which is a total of 72 pts between the stats. What I usually do is use the 72 pts but rearrange as I feel fit, so a particular NPC may get a 16, 15, 12, 10, 10, 9, while another may get 18, 16, 10, 10, 10, 8.

That and the chance to use their potions puts them well above cr4 imo.

That chance was actually created for them by the PCs, who got to prepare completely and buff up before the attack, so I figure it's a bit of a wash too.

PS Thanks for the extremely detailed post and combat stats.

Any time.

 

[Hussar]

Actually, only 1 pt in total more than what they should have had by the RAW. Since they have class levels, they're supposed to use the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8 (before racial modifiers), which is a total of 72 pts between the stats. What I usually do is use the 72 pts but rearrange as I feel fit, so a particular NPC may get a 16, 15, 12, 10, 10, 9, while another may get 18, 16, 10, 10, 10, 8.

Just to nitpick, but that's not how point buy works. You don't simply tally the total and divide. An 18 (16 pb)is worth far more than a 14 (8 pb). ((Note, those point buy numbers are from memory, so I might be mistaken.))

 

[GQuail]

Just to nitpick, but that's not how point buy works. You don't simply tally the total and divide. An 18 (16 pb)is worth far more than a 14 (8 pb). ((Note, those point buy numbers are from memory, so I might be mistaken.))

And once again, Hussar's point that "CR is based on narrow circumstances, and DMs who deviate from it will knock things out of whack" seems to bear fruit. :>

Am finding this thread very interesting because my own group is large (been fluctuating between 6 to 8 players) and so I need to play about more with CR. I'd been working to 6 players = EL+1; 8 players = EL+2. My players don't have exceptional rolls or particular odd kit, but sometimes one gets little oddities where encounters don't go as planned, so I'm interested to see how to spot those in advance.

The earlier mention of terrain is a good one - as is the note regarding the use of splatbooks. I've recently picked up Spell Compendium specifically to combat this -my players have time to print out spellbooks combining all their favourite books together, but the thoguht of doing that for every NPC I roll up does not appeal to me! This way, I can finally deal with their Cometfalls, their Summon Undead and their Master Air. ;-)

 

[shilsen]

Just to nitpick, but that's not how point buy works. You don't simply tally the total and divide. An 18 (16 pb)is worth far more than a 14 (8 pb). ((Note, those point buy numbers are from memory, so I might be mistaken.))

I wasn't referring to point buy but to the elite stat array from the MM and how I use/modify it. And yes, the deviation will usually be much higher if one looks at the stats and what they mean on the point buy scale, since stats of 18, 16, 16, 10, 10, 10 and 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 12 may total to the same numerically but are vastly different on the point buy scale.

To add a little context, my PCs start with 80 pts (not point buy) to divide among their stats (before adding racial modifiers), with no more than 1 stat at 18 and no stat at less than 8 before racial mods. So I had PCs starting with things like 18, 16, 16, 12, 10, 8 or 16, 16, 12, 12, 12, 12, which add up to well past the point buy total used for "high-powered campaigns" in the DMG. Due to in-game events, they've all taken a permanent -2 to Con, but have gained a permanent +4 enhancement bonus to all stats.

And once again, Hussar's point that "CR is based on narrow circumstances, and DMs who deviate from it will knock things out of whack" seems to bear fruit. :>

Absolutely. CR/EL are useful tools, but I never consider them any more than a rough guideline at best.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I think that's been my whole point all the way along. A lot of the complaints I see about CR/EL is from DM's whose encounters went pear shaped. The problem is, CR/EL is a predictive tool, true, but, like all predictive tools, it suffers in actual use. Yes, a bog standard troll vs a 5th level party should be a cakewalk fight. That's what EL says. It shouldn't be hard and it certainly shouldn't be lethal.

Unfortunately, when the DM rolls three straight crits and nearly maximum damage and turns the fighter into a pretzel, "shouldn't be lethal" tends to be kinda laughable.

And that's something else to remember. At the end of the day, the odds always favour the DM. Always. Simply because the DM rolls at least as many attacks as the party combined. Take my example above of three straight crits. A 1 in 8000 chance. Not too likely right? But, over the course of a 20 level campaign, the DM can easily roll a couple of thousand attack rolls. Now, the chances are more 1 in 4. Suddenly, it's a reasonable possibility that at some point, during the campaign, the DM might pull out three straight 20's.

And a PC dies.

The CR/EL system simply cannot predict this kind of event. It might happen, and when it does, you whack a PC. Or your PC whacks that BBEG in one round. Whichever. I do see the addition of things like Action Points as a very excellent mechanic for mitigating this sort of event. It's one thing for your PC to get buried under enemies and fall. That happens. It's quite another to have your 7th level PC smoked by Random Mook #33 just because the dice fall a certain way. Having killed FAR too many PC's in my World's Largest Dungeon campaign (1 every 3 sessions on average), I think I'll be using Action Points from here on in.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I wrote http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/encounters.htm probably a couple years ago now. At the time it was intended more to deal with people who for whatever reasons just didn't get the differences and the relationships between CR, EL, XP, and EL, often using one term when they meant another, and confusing it with the functions of a third. However, the overall point was that people were assuming that CR and EL were PRECISION factors that one could simply plug into a formula and ALWAYS get reliable results.

The truth, as noted well in this thread too, is that it's only a TOOL for encounter DESIGN. A useful tool, no doubt, but there are still way too many variables to expect a formula to EVER reliably predict the outcome of an encounter across different campaigns with different kinds of characters, more or fewer characters, players and their playstyles, DM's, etc. not to mention the simple vagaries of random dice rolls.

 

[shilsen]

Yeah, I think that's been my whole point all the way along. A lot of the complaints I see about CR/EL is from DM's whose encounters went pear shaped. The problem is, CR/EL is a predictive tool, true, but, like all predictive tools, it suffers in actual use.

Agreed. And I don't really think it's a problem but something to be expected. There's no way, in a game with as many random variables in it as D&D (and I'm not referring to just dice here), that any system can be more than a very rough prediction at best. Considering the factors it has to take into account, I find CR/EL holds up about as well as it can be expected to.

And that's something else to remember. At the end of the day, the odds always favour the DM. Always.

Good point.

I do see the addition of things like Action Points as a very excellent mechanic for mitigating this sort of event. It's one thing for your PC to get buried under enemies and fall. That happens. It's quite another to have your 7th level PC smoked by Random Mook #33 just because the dice fall a certain way. Having killed FAR too many PC's in my World's Largest Dungeon campaign (1 every 3 sessions on average), I think I'll be using Action Points from here on in.

As I've posted in the "Does D&D Need An Alternate Death Mechanic?" thread, that's why I allow the use of action pts (and now swashbuckling cards, which we've switched to) to survive killing blows/effects at -9 hp (and stabilized). I do tend to run brutal encounters, and without it I'd have lost one PC every 2 sessions. And that's in a campaign where PCs only have 1 or, much more rarely, 2 encounters in a given game day. In something like WLD it could be worse, though using pre-written encounters instead of ones I create might make a difference.

The truth, as noted well in this thread too, is that it's only a TOOL for encounter DESIGN. A useful tool, no doubt, but there are still way too many variables to expect a formula to EVER reliably predict the outcome of an encounter across different campaigns with different kinds of characters, more or fewer characters, players and their playstyles, DM's, etc. not to mention the simple vagaries of random dice rolls.

QFT