Failed promises

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d20Dwarf said:
Nowhere in Midnight is the promise of defeating Izrador even hinted at, much less stated as a goal of the product.

Perhaps not. But I think that a lot of people saw the grim, Epic struggle of Lord of the Rings in the setting, which you are going to have a hard time convincing me was accidental. And we all know how that story ended.

I don't think you should be surprised some people had that expectation.

(Of course I perceive there is a difference between "expectation" and "promise", but I'm just sayin')
 

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Psion said:
Perhaps not. But I think that a lot of people saw the grim, Epic struggle of Lord of the Rings in the setting, which you are going to have a hard time convincing me was accidental. And we all know how that story ended.

I don't think you should be surprised some people had that expectation.

(Of course I perceive there is a difference between "expectation" and "promise", but I'm just sayin')

And, even though I would disagree with the decision, it is within any DM's power to have his PCs destroy Izrador. I understand people's expectations, for sure, I just don't think it's rational to judge a product by them. (I could see an argument for that with a rehash of an old setting, but not with something completely new.)
 

ColonelHardisson said:
The thing is, when someone tries to be civil in a discussion like this - like, say, me; take a gander at my posts earlier in the thread - they almost always get ignored. But let someone say something bluntly disparaging, then they get quoted later on. That doesn't really encourage anyone to be civil in a discussion like this.

That's a really, really good point.

Not sure what can be done about it.
 

GMSkarka said:
No, but:


  • " it bored me to hell. Dull writing, unimaginative content..yuck! "
  • "crappy "
  • "The biggest stinker for me"
  • "the twin abominations...."
  • "I'm so sick of writers giving us their vision...."
  • "fills me with dread..."
  • "Horrible horrible book."
  • "It did, in fact, suck worse than the previews suggested."
  • (Product) "was crap."
...and that's just from the first two pages.

Hardly what anyone would call civil.


Civil? This is a message board, you know? Anyone who can join has the right to post their opinions on a product, even if it is expressed with shallow, tactless comments...(not saying the above are shallow or tactless even...)


Any time you produce a work for any audience, you should expect this, and having 10 years in the business, I am surprised that you still take objection to this sort of feedback.
It would be nice if everyone went into the whys, but they don't. Just makes the nice, detailed comments seem that much sweeter...
 

GMSkarka said:
However, at the core of that criticism is a fundamental misunderstanding of how this industry operates. The criticism leveled at the writer is an insult, because he (or she) is being blamed for the decisions of editors, line developers and publishers.

Writers don't make these decisions. They write. Internet critics blast the writer, not even thinking about the fact that the Writer was adhering to the guidelines they were given.
Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.

A publisher usually provides but general guidelines to a writer, not exacting specifics to the point that the writer is but the publisher’s amanuensis or automaton.

The editor usually edits and avoids rewriting a competently written manuscript.

The writer remains the principle architect of the manuscript, particularly in the details.

It goes too far, I think, to say there is a "fundamental misunderstanding" of the process, certainly to an extent that would absolve a writer for the chiefmost responsibility for what is written.

I think you make too much of the publisher’s and editor’s roles.

In any event, a good writer has two audiences, I think. One is, of course, the publisher. The other is the ultimate consumer, the gaming public. The good writer should write for both.

While it is not likely good form to "blame" a publisher for a particular, mandated design decision, the writer, in response to criticism, can explain why things were done the way they were in the manuscript, short of "blaming." At the other end of the spectrum, if the writer anticipates a potentially strong reaction from the public, the writer should take pains to explain matters within the text. To paraphrase - a sound explanation turn’eth away wrath. :D

Where there is an established canon, a writer ignores or disregards it, without sound explanation, at his or her peril. Gamers invested in a particular subject matter, fans, can hardly be faulted for expecting the writer in such case to write to the generally accepted expectations of the setting or for becoming loudly critical of a writer who wrote without care as to what has come before. For the writer, it may be a job but for the gamer it is more likely to be a particular point of interest, even passion. That may seem silly at some level but it is a reality with respect to how any number of gamers see what they consider "their" game. Indeed, the hobby would likely not exist, or certainly be poorer, were it not capable of engendering such strong feelings from a goodly number of gamers. A good writer will write accordingly and, I believe, can be held a less than good writer if they simply do what they will without regard to or for the consumers’ feelings which will be grounded in such notions of "canon." Writers unable or uncomfortable with such expectations should limit themselves to writing entirely new material with no prior history. However, even in such event, a topic may have certain conventions, the functional equivalent of canon.

A writer is not hogtied by either canon or convention, but where such are present must be creative within such bounds. This seems not unreasonable or unworkable to me.

Is a writer insulted if it is said he or she "screwed up" by failing to be mindful of accepted canon or convention without explanation? I think not for such insult is at an irreducible level synonymous with the otherwise impersonal criticism. That one might say "the work" ignores canon, rather than the "the author" ignores canon, is a fine point of politesse without a meaningful difference, save a lessened likelihood of hurt feelings.

I think in the final analysis the writer cannot avoid criticism for what they wrote, even personal criticism, if such is appropriate, being attributable to the writer’s choices or decisions.
 

Soel said:
GMSkarka said:
No, but:
  • " it bored me to hell. Dull writing, unimaginative content..yuck! "
  • "crappy "
  • "The biggest stinker for me"
  • "the twin abominations...."
  • "I'm so sick of writers giving us their vision...."
  • "fills me with dread..."
  • "Horrible horrible book."
  • "It did, in fact, suck worse than the previews suggested."
  • (Product) "was crap."
...and that's just from the first two pages.

Hardly what anyone would call civil.


Civil? This is a message board, you know? Anyone who can join has the right to post their opinions on a product, even if it is expressed with shallow, tactless comments...(not saying the above are shallow or tactless even...)


Any time you produce a work for any audience, you should expect this, and having 10 years in the business, I am surprised that you still take objection to this sort of feedback.
It would be nice if everyone went into the whys, but they don't. Just makes the nice, detailed comments seem that much sweeter...

I agree with Soel.

True story.

In another forum, I took to task Eberron adventures publshed in Dungeon Magazine in sober but no uncertain terms. Keith Baker, one of the authors and author of the setting, surprisingly responded asking for more explicit details that would flesh out my comments. I responded soberly but in no uncertain terms, at one point explaining to the man who created Eberron that I believed, and why, that his Eberron Dungeon adventures failed to capture the essence of the setting. Did I insult him? Not to to judge by his response. He explained his reasoning and/but conceded one of the points I had made. I, in turn, after having heard his explanation, had to concede that, under that explaination, his decisons made sense, even if I was still not enthralled with the result.

Mr. Baker could have easily begun his response "How dare you question the creator of . . ." or something dismissive/sarcastic along those lines but he did not. I was greatly impressed with his even-tempered responses - to the point that I reread the material in question with his explaination in mind and found myself less critical overall and with a greater interest in the setting sufficient to have now seen me pick up more Eberron material out of curiosity.

If you are a writer and choose to frequent internet forums, you are by some measure a public figure/celebrity, and you should act like it. Short of someone saying bad things about your momma, I think, the best response is a measured one. You don't have to roll over for critics, Mr. Baker held my feet to the fire, but neither do you have to react in a way you would object to others reacting, nor, failing that, pout about it (not suggesting anyone is pouting).

IMO
 

GVDammerung said:
It goes too far, I think, to say there is a "fundamental misunderstanding" of the process, certainly to an extent that would absolve a writer for the chiefmost responsibility for what is written.

I think you make too much of the publisher’s and editor’s roles.

Only in gamer-internet-land would someone actually make this sort of claim to somebody who has actually worked in the field for more than a decade, with extensive first-hand knowledge of how things are actually done.

Unbelievable.


Well, since over a decade of game industry experience isn't enough to sway you that I might actually know what I'm talking about, let's just "agree to disagree." (Which is a polite way of saying that I'll be over here, bashing my head against a wall in disbelief.)
 

GVDammerung said:
If you are a writer and choose to frequent internet forums, you are by some measure a public figure/celebrity, and you should act like it.

I'm still not entirely sure where it says that a "public figure/celebrity" has to put up with random abuse from every Internet Badass that wanders in.....I hear this argument put forth again and again, and I still don't buy it. Nobody, public figure or otherwise, needs to put up with jerks, and yet I hear this from gamers a lot. It's almost like it's "payback" or something, to even out the "fame and fortune" that we supposedly get, or that we should put up with it because we "get to write games." (which some gamers think is tantamount to PLAYING games).

Well, it's just a job, like any other. The fame is extremely small-scale, the fortune even smaller, and a deadline is a deadline. Nothing in there makes me somehow deserving of catching crap from passerby, because I'm a "public figure."
 

GMSkarka said:
Only in gamer-internet-land would someone actually make this sort of claim to somebody who has actually worked in the field for more than a decade, with extensive first-hand knowledge of how things are actually done.

Unbelievable.


Well, since over a decade of game industry experience isn't enough to sway you that I might actually know what I'm talking about, let's just "agree to disagree." (Which is a polite way of saying that I'll be over here, bashing my head against a wall in disbelief.)

Well, let's look at it this way. If the writer was so constrained by the guidelines, editors, and other external factors, that he cannot accept responsibility for his work and accept the criticism, then maybe his name ought not to be the one most prominently displayed on the by-line.
That by-line should tell us, the reading audience, who the primary author of the work is and who should be taking responsibility for it.
 

GMSkarka said:
Only in gamer-internet-land would someone actually make this sort of claim to somebody who has actually worked in the field for more than a decade, with extensive first-hand knowledge of how things are actually done.

Unbelievable.
While you are most likely correct in how the process works (I'm not going to argue with you over how it works), I still think the writer deserves a fair bit of blame when something bad happens and the writer also deserves a fair bit of the praise when something good happens.

This is ignoring any 'extenuating circumstances.' (ie the writer is the editor and publisher, or the work was massively changed and rewritten by the editor).

GMSkarka said:
I'm still not entirely sure where it says that a "public figure/celebrity" has to put up with random abuse from every Internet Badass that wanders in.....I hear this argument put forth again and again, and I still don't buy it.
Nobody said life was fair, unfortunately.
The stupid and the uncivil will play their game and you can either drop to their level and play their own game, or ignore them as the ignorant masses they are.
 

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