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Failing Forward

How do you feel about Fail Forward mechanics?

  • I like Fail Forward

    Votes: 74 46.8%
  • I dislike Fail Forward

    Votes: 26 16.5%
  • I do not care one way or the other

    Votes: 9 5.7%
  • I like it but only in certain situations

    Votes: 49 31.0%

I like the concept.


The interesting aspect of this - if your character falls down, he has no choice but to pick himself up. But if his pudding detector is falling, he can try to go without it, or continue. The fail forward aproach here has created more possible outcomes of the scenario.

Both basically boil down to continue or turn back though. Falling down the chasm could open up several other possibilities depending on what is down there. But for me, what I think I dislike about the failing forward approach, just as a matter of preference, is that death by falling down the chasm and taking enough damage to die doesn't seem to be on the table. To me that is the big stake of jumping over a gap in the terrain like that. I wouldn't mind if there was a tiered success system and on a failure you fall, on a partial success you risk having a set back like a lost item or something, and on a full success you make it across. I use something like that myself. It is the lack of a real total failure that I think kind of bothers me.
 

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Both basically boil down to continue or turn back though. Falling down the chasm could open up several other possibilities depending on what is down there. But for me, what I think I dislike about the failing forward approach, just as a matter of preference, is that death by falling down the chasm and taking enough damage to die doesn't seem to be on the table. To me that is the big stake of jumping over a gap in the terrain like that. I wouldn't mind if there was a tiered success system and on a failure you fall, on a partial success you risk having a set back like a lost item or something, and on a full success you make it across. I use something like that myself. It is the lack of a real total failure that I think kind of bothers me.

It depends on frequency and circumstance of the technique's use.

As an alternative example, consider the case of a solo character cautiously exploring a small dungeon. The character falls into an empty covered pit trap 20' deep that resets over him. The character tries to climb up, but the DC (20) for the wall is beyond anything the player can roll (Dex 8; skill not trained) under the best of circumstance. Even if the character somehow makes the 10-15 foot climb, he probably has no way of triggering the pit cover.

Now the table can leave the situation in stasis and wait for the character to die of thirst or starvation or even fast-forward to that point.

Alternatively, the DM can fail-forward and say the noise of the PC makes whilst failing to climb attracts a nearby denizen of the dungeon that the PC can attempt to lever to get out of the pit. Or perhaps the PC will detect one wall is damp and more cool than the rest and if the PC can breach it, a stream or water will begin to flood the pit and the PC can try to swim up at the pit fills.
 

I guess I view writing a story as a bit different. Even if you're 'experiencing the world' you're still writing a story. The whole point of a role-playing game to me is that you are writing a shared 'story', perhaps we call it a 'shared experience.'

You don't need a pre-written story arc. But even if you are simply experiencing the world, the people in the world have 'stories' of their own. There are groups of people that have shared goals.

I've come to really like the approach of looking at RPGs as a TV show. Some shows have an underlying story that drives the entire show. Others are just the day-to-day events surrounding an individual or group of individuals with no greater story tying them together other than a job, for example. Many try to do both. Most of the time I find the ones that do both to be rather annoying. For example, I enjoyed The Mentalist, but really didn't like the Red John story. It wasn't necessary, and eventually killed the show, because once they finished their story, and screwed up all of the dynamics of the characters and what they did, they didn't have a show anymore.

My home campaign right now is more of what I'd call a heroic story. Like something along the lines of Lord of the Rings. They are part of something bigger that's happening and they are among the only people that might be able to do something. Like the first couple of 5th ed D&D adventure paths, a lot of what happens is due to working with others, and organizations like the Lord's Alliance and Harpers. They want to know what's going on, so they remain engaged. They are, however, free to go whatever direction they like. And the things they stumble upon aren't all related to this epic story, and they can choose not to engage with it any time they'd like.

The campaign I'm starting at a store, however, is more of the experience the world type. I'm modeling it after the early Gygax home adventures, as well as what I envision Ed Greenwood's Shadowdale campaign was like. Each player will have multiple characters prepared, and they are all starting from the same 'home base'. Because I anticipate that there may be different players from one session to the next I'm making sure that each week we can switch up which characters are in play, while the others are involved in downtime activities until the next time they are active.

I see this as a more typical tv show where there's an ensemble cast of characters, with probably a few that are the 'main' characters in most every episode (since they are the ones that will show up every session), and the 'story' is self contained in that episode. The story is one of shared experiences, and doesn't need to go beyond that, although the options are always there to do so, since there are always things going on in the background.

Regardless, the unique thing about a role-playing game is this shared experience. The story.

That's one of the reasons why I think it's important for those promoting 'fail forward' write about how it will function well in any play style. It's another reason why I think 'success at a cost' and 'fail forward' are both bad terms since them imply you aren't failing, but that you always move 'forward'. I get the originally the idea was that the story moves forward, but it's too easily misunderstood.

I guess it's really an idea of moving beyond a binary skill check to a degree of success/failure check that also pays attention to the context and possibilities. So what, a 'possibility check?' I don't really like that either, though. But to me the concept should remind people that, unlike a video game, there are an endless number of variables and possible outcomes whenever an interesting situation arises that have a possibility for failure, or to alter the direction of the story or experience.

As I'm thinking this through, I guess there's a question of what the benefit of this technique, whatever it's called, is trying to accomplish.

So here are some thoughts to outline what I think are goals, or maybe pros and cons. Coming in part from a process design background, here's one way to look at it.

You can look at an entire game session as one process. Within that are multiple sub-processes. The most well defined sub-process in most games is combat.

So we're looking for a process to handle the non-combat events where a character's skills are tested, and a certain outcome is not guaranteed.

I'll go back to the simple scenario of a locked door leading into a room of orcs.

Depending on the PCs, the goal of this particular event is variable. I'll give a few possibilities.

They want to sneak into the room to steal something, preferably remaining undetected.
They want to burst into the room to surprise their enemies so they can eliminate them quickly, more easily, and without casualties or being injured.
They want to sneak through the room to another exit.

There are other possibilities, but these are good enough to start.

Now at it's most basic, you could have the party state their goal (pick one of the above), make a check and determine whether they succeed or fail. You can narrate a dramatic encounter based on that check, and the check can return degrees of success and failure.

But this is really boring. Yes, the success and failure may be determined by that skills of the PCs, but ultimately it's largely just the DM narrating a story.

So then we can go with the opposite. Everything is determined through the rules system with a series of checks. Going with option 1.

Stealth check for each character to get to the door, with a perception check for each of the orcs.
Listen at the door check, with another round of stealth and perception (assume there's a stealth and perception check in every round that a PC does something that might make noise).
If not successful, they spend another round of checks to listen again to make sure.
They hear that there is something in the room, now check to see if they determine: what, how many, make out any conversation, etc.
Pick locks check, with the usual stealth/perception.
If failed, repeat.
Success, stealth, perception, and check to see if the door sticks or squeaks.
Door opened, OK, stealth, perception, perception on the part of the PCs to see what they can spot through the partially opened door, etc.
Oh, I forgot to add a check to see if the dusty conditions caused one of the characters to sneeze or cough.

Anyway, I think we get the point. There's a stage where we have too many checks, and not enough story. Actually, let's call it narrative.

Combat in game systems is mechanically very mature, and there are a lot of choices for the style and approach to combat across game systems.

Non-combat action resolution is not nearly as mature. I like the idea of trying to do something better, but I think the approaches described have been partial solutions, often concepts, that are not quantified in an easy to explain way. I think before we get to that, we need to verify what we're trying to accomplish.

So what I think we're really trying to accomplish is:
A 'better' way to determine the outcome of a non-combat activity/event/decision point in the game.
It must take into account the skill level/abilities of the PCs to the degree that a PC with a higher skill level should be more likely to succeed.
It must be granular enough to feel like the PCs are accomplishing something, provide results on a character by character basis (one continues to listen at the door while the other picks the lock), but not generate an 'excessive' number of checks.
We need a way to account for many variables, including the environment (squeaky door), fate (sneeze), skills of others (perception), etc.
We want a method that adds to the narrative in a productive way. It can add to the narrative in a direct or indirect way (failed to pick the lock, squeaky door, sneeze), but should not preclude any possibilities - it can't guarantee success on a failed check, nor preclude total failure.
The check should take into account the outcome of other related checks or events. (a failed pick lock check might impact the stealth check, or the amount of time, such as 3 or 4 rounds to pick the lock might impact the stealth check).
It should include as many of the players as possible, but also allow the key individuals be the focus.

It should be universal (not tied to any specific rule set, skill set, etc.) but scalable, to allow different play styles to modify the granularity easily. Ultimately it should enable the DM to adjudicate the game in their style, with their goals in mind, and provide the framework for an exciting and fun game for the players.

What would you add/remove or change in this list. It's just a brainstorm essentially, and I've got a thick skin, so let's see what we can come up with. Part of that process should be to come up with a proper and appropriate name for it.

Ilbranteloth

I agree that all games tell a story. The difference for me is in how you get to the story. Are you actively making choices that will result in the best "story" or is the story arising out of what happens during the game. It can be a mixture of both. and there is always a story.

One area that this does come through clearly is in character death.
Tell some people that your character died and you will be greeted with, You have a terrible DM you should find a DM who won't kill your characters, because you put time into making them.

So for some people a character dying will stop the "story". For others the dying is just part of the story of their characters life. For others it's only OK if it is a story significant or meaningful death.

So here are some options:
Death is just part of life... you died. (Not story focused, but tells a story)

Death is only on the line if an omen is in play (as suggested further up this thread). (Very story focused approach.)

If the player might die we fail forward so that does not happen. (again a story focused option)

Use a fate or luck point to avoid the outcome the dice gave you. (you have x fate or luck points per session) (This uses a game mechanic to put a safely net behind the players, making them more willing to take risks)

You are marked for death. You somehow survive the ignoble death (the goblins dagger glanced off your grandmothers locket) but you will die this day. By the end of the session you character will die (just not this second) so go and make a heroic last stand or do something significant with you characters last breath. An example of this might be if Boromir in the LotR was running towards the 2 halflings and he is hit in the chest by an arrow as he comes over the hill, killing him with a critical. The DM marks him for death and so Boromir swats aside the arrow just before it hits him. he charges into the horde of orks and makes a valiant last stand. cutting down orks, but at the same time taking arrow after arrow, until he finally fall to the ground exhausted and is killed by the ork leader. (Makes a much better story).

The player and tell a flash back or how he had at the last minute before leaving the shire he had picked up a loaf of bread off the table and stuffed it in his pocket, so when it looked like he had been stabbed it had actually just skewered the bread and he was left with a flesh wound instead. (Leverage uses flash backs a lot to explain things in that game).

So in all those options a story is told. The tone of the game sets which option or approach is best to use. The first option tells a story as much as the others, but for some people does not tell a satisfying story. At the same time for others it tells a story that for them it "truer" to the game they want to play.

I agree that we are looking for something but I am not sure it is a universal approach that is needed. That is the reason we have so much conflict between gaming styles and "approaches". I think 5E made a good attempt to give a range of ways to deal with things (But I don't think included enough breadth to their options), but presented it badly due to peoples desire to be told the "right" way to play. In fact I think codifying any one way will do more damage than good and is the reason there are so many D and D clones that cater to each possible.

I think a good place to start is to find out all the different versions of how people approach skill checks and dealing with the exploration pillar of games, but avoiding overly broad terms like fail forward which clearly encompasses a variety of actual ways of dealing with the same thing.
 

It depends on frequency and circumstance of the technique's use.

As an alternative example, consider the case of a solo character cautiously exploring a small dungeon. The character falls into an empty covered pit trap 20' deep that resets over him. The character tries to climb up, but the DC (20) for the wall is beyond anything the player can roll (Dex 8; skill not trained) under the best of circumstance. Even if the character somehow makes the 10-15 foot climb, he probably has no way of triggering the pit cover.

Now the table can leave the situation in stasis and wait for the character to die of thirst or starvation or even fast-forward to that point.

Alternatively, the DM can fail-forward and say the noise of the PC makes whilst failing to climb attracts a nearby denizen of the dungeon that the PC can attempt to lever to get out of the pit. Or perhaps the PC will detect one wall is damp and more cool than the rest and if the PC can breach it, a stream or water will begin to flood the pit and the PC can try to swim up at the pit fills.

I don't even see this as failing forward. If it is then is it such a generalized term to almost being meaningless. Failing forward becomes just "don't let the game have a dead end". You don't need failing forward to realize that people who make traps will check traps, or that dungeons with monsters wandering around it will have monsters wandering around it, or that if you are playing a a game with just a DM and 1 player then adjustments need to be made to the game to keep it running smoothly. There is also the danger that you jump in too quickly with a solution, not giving them a chance to actually problem solve themselves.
 
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I agree that all games tell a story. The difference for me is in how you get to the story. Are you actively making choices that will result in the best "story" or is the story arising out of what happens during the game. It can be a mixture of both. and there is always a story.

One area that this does come through clearly is in character death.
Tell some people that your character died and you will be greeted with, You have a terrible DM you should find a DM who won't kill your characters, because you put time into making them.

So for some people a character dying will stop the "story". For others the dying is just part of the story of their characters life. For others it's only OK if it is a story significant or meaningful death.

So here are some options:
Death is just part of life... you died. (Not story focused, but tells a story)

Death is only on the line if an omen is in play (as suggested further up this thread). (Very story focused approach.)

If the player might die we fail forward so that does not happen. (again a story focused option)

Use a fate or luck point to avoid the outcome the dice gave you. (you have x fate or luck points per session) (This uses a game mechanic to put a safely net behind the players, making them more willing to take risks)

You are marked for death. You somehow survive the ignoble death (the goblins dagger glanced off your grandmothers locket) but you will die this day. By the end of the session you character will die (just not this second) so go and make a heroic last stand or do something significant with you characters last breath. An example of this might be if Boromir in the LotR was running towards the 2 halflings and he is hit in the chest by an arrow as he comes over the hill, killing him with a critical. The DM marks him for death and so Boromir swats aside the arrow just before it hits him. he charges into the horde of orks and makes a valiant last stand. cutting down orks, but at the same time taking arrow after arrow, until he finally fall to the ground exhausted and is killed by the ork leader. (Makes a much better story).

The player and tell a flash back or how he had at the last minute before leaving the shire he had picked up a loaf of bread off the table and stuffed it in his pocket, so when it looked like he had been stabbed it had actually just skewered the bread and he was left with a flesh wound instead. (Leverage uses flash backs a lot to explain things in that game).

So in all those options a story is told. The tone of the game sets which option or approach is best to use. The first option tells a story as much as the others, but for some people does not tell a satisfying story. At the same time for others it tells a story that for them it "truer" to the game they want to play.

I agree that we are looking for something but I am not sure it is a universal approach that is needed. That is the reason we have so much conflict between gaming styles and "approaches". I think 5E made a good attempt to give a range of ways to deal with things (But I don't think included enough breadth to their options), but presented it badly due to peoples desire to be told the "right" way to play. In fact I think codifying any one way will do more damage than good and is the reason there are so many D and D clones that cater to each possible.

I think a good place to start is to find out all the different versions of how people approach skill checks and dealing with the exploration pillar of games, but avoiding overly broad terms like fail forward which clearly encompasses a variety of actual ways of dealing with the same thing.

I'm in the option #1 camp here. Having said that, I do make character death a little more difficult. In addition, I've got other options in play (injuries for example) that have a very meaningful impact, and for an extended period of time - as in at least days. This is all handled mechanically.

But that's also because the combat system is mature enough that it makes death and injuries easy to work with. It's up to us (the players and myself) to wrap that event in the story.

As for a universal approach, I don't know if it's possible or not. I didn't think of tying this to the Exploration Pillar, but that's spot on.

I don't think there will be a single mechanic that will satisfy everybody, But that's not my point. My point is that we can codify what the process is for an exploration event. Combat would be a good example, I guess.

Contact - to have a combat you have to have at least two creatures come into contact.
Surprise - one or more of the creatures may be surprised by this contact.
Declare hostility - at least one of the creatures has to take a hostile position in regards to others.
Initiation - not in the sense as to who goes when, but that somebody initiates a hostile action.
Engagement - This is the active combat itself, which will typically have it's own detailed process.
Disengagement - Again, not an ability, but an act to remove oneself from the hostilities. One way to disengage is to die.
Cessation - The hostilities end, for whatever reason, and the game shifts back to a normal state.

This is a high level look at a combat - and I'd guess a significant number of people would start with surprise (and then skip declare hostility). The fact is, you can have contact, and surprise, without declaring hostility. In fact, without declaring hostility (and sometimes with), it would become an interaction event. The main difference between the two is the method of engagement.

The engagement process details how to resolve the actions within the combat or interaction, and would probably be quite different between the two.

So what does an exploration event look like? What is the difference? I guess both an interaction and a combat event are with creatures. The main difference between the two being the engagement itself. So an exploration event is an interaction with a place or thing.

In other words, walking through a dungeon is exploration, but not an exploration event. Although non-events can be helpful and tell you something about the place (this passage is safe, because it is free of traps and monsters). In the game there will be a transition in and out of the event, and it's the engagement with the event that would be the focus. The event encompasses the actions, skills, and intent of the characters, and also the environment, the hand of fate, etc. The specific mechanics would differ between one game system or another, but a complete process would include all of these elements.

Contact/Detection - something presents itself as an obstacle or something of interest?
Surprise - could happen (pit trap).
Declare intent? - if you opt not to engage with the obstacle, then there is no event (which can be a viable option, but not always).
Initiation
Engagement
Disengagement
Cessation

I don't know if I'm missing something, but that's sort of a start. It's probably the engagement subprocess where the fail forward or lack thereof will occur. That's where we'd need to really work through the process on the next level.

Ilbranteloth
 

I don't even see this as failing forward. If it is then is it such a generalized term to almost being meaningless. Failing forward becomes just "don't let the game have a dead end". You don't need failing forward to realize that people who make traps will check traps, or that dungeons with monsters wandering around it will have monsters wandering around it, or that if you are playing a a game with just a DM and 1 player then adjustments need to be made to the game to keep it running smoothly. There is also the danger that you jump in too quickly with a solution, not giving them a chance to actually problem solve themselves.

Trap-makers only check for traps when they are still present; there may be no wandering monsters in the environment or they may habitually avoid the trapped sections. There can be more than one player; put all the PCs in the pit with no way to get out.

At its base Failing Forward is just "don't let the game have a dead end". That is the purpose of not returning the situation to the same state it had prior to the failure. Introduce through action or reaction something new the players can interact with to increase the probability the stasis will break.

How frequently you apply the tool depends on the game system and personal preference. Some games urge a change for every attempt checked like Dungeon World*. Others, like D&D, do not.

Unless running a game where change is expected, I tend to use Fail Forward either on a clock as part of a scenario "X happens at 6 PM unless Y has occurred" or as a referee tool when the players are getting frustrated with the current situation . If the players are happily trying different approaches to adjust the situation then they are adapting, learning, and innovating -- key concepts of fail-forward as business jargon as opposed to RPG jargon.


* A slight exaggeration
 

At its base Failing Forward is just "don't let the game have a dead end".

That is the purpose of not returning the situation to the same state it had prior to the failure.

Those are not the same thing. You can return the game to the same state it had prior to failure AND not let the game have a dead end.

Introduce through action or reaction something new the players can interact with to increase the probability the stasis will break.
Unless the DM has created a situation where there is only one way to a goal, the stasis is going to break no matter what. There is nothing he can add that will increase the probability since it's already 100%.

Unless running a game where change is expected, I tend to use Fail Forward either on a clock as part of a scenario "X happens at 6 PM unless Y has occurred" or as a referee tool when the players are getting frustrated with the current situation . If the players are happily trying different approaches to adjust the situation then they are adapting, learning, and innovating -- key concepts of fail-forward as business jargon as opposed to RPG jargon.

One of the things I do when the players are having some trouble coming up with ideas is call for rolls. I know the behind the scenes information and I know their characters. The DC of that roll will vary from PC to PC depending on skills and background, but almost always someone will make it. Based on the roll and which skill, stat, background is applicable, I will give a piece of applicable helpful information to that character.

Doing that moves the action forward in a manner that is connected to the what is going on, and rewards the PC based on his skill choices and/or background. That makes the players happy as they created their characters to have those things.
 

Those are not the same thing. You can return the game to the same state it had prior to failure AND not let the game have a dead end.

Sometimes, sure. Other times not so much.

Unless the DM has created a situation where there is only one way to a goal, the stasis is going to break no matter what. There is nothing he can add that will increase the probability since it's already 100%.

Untrue. The situation can develop during play -- see my lone PC falling into a pit, above. Additionally, there could be a dozen ways out of the situation, but the PCs do not have the capability for half, consumed their resources for another third, and can't think of the 2 remaining methods.

One of the things I do when the players are having some trouble coming up with ideas is call for rolls. I know the behind the scenes information and I know their characters. The DC of that roll will vary from PC to PC depending on skills and background, but almost always someone will make it. Based on the roll and which skill, stat, background is applicable, I will give a piece of applicable helpful information to that character.

Which is an equivalent to failing-forward. You are introducing new information to the players that the PCs can take advantage of. The only difference is the change is internal to the PC as opposed to coming from the environment surrounding them. It is another technique I use.

Doing that moves the action forward in a manner that is connected to the what is going on, and rewards the PC based on his skill choices and/or background. That makes the players happy as they created their characters to have those things.

Failing-forward is also connected to what is going on -- just it is connected to what is going on in the environment the PCs find themselves within. A well-done fail-forward also can provide additional implications about the situation from which the players can draw inferences.

As for what makes players happy, that is too varied to generalise. I do make an effort to develop situations where the PCs can utilise all purchased abilities, but in some systems that also means I get to use their contacts, favours, and other environmental perks as a failing forward lever.
 

I wouldn't mind if there was a tiered success system and on a failure you fall, on a partial success you risk having a set back like a lost item or something, and on a full success you make it across. I use something like that myself. It is the lack of a real total failure that I think kind of bothers me.

Well, perhaps you missed how it was mentioned much earlier in the thread that the systems (like FATE) have Succeed at a Cost as part of a tiered success system? That outright failure *is* still on the table?
 

Well, perhaps you missed how it was mentioned much earlier in the thread that the systems (like FATE) have Succeed at a Cost as part of a tiered success system? That outright failure *is* still on the table?

I am fine with that. But my only issue there is then that doesn't sound like failing forward as people have been describing it. It sounds more like a degrees of success system (which is cool, but it isn't what people seem to want when they talk about failing forward). Failing forward appears to be a solution to the problem that hard failure can present to story flow. If hard failure is still a possibility, then it isn't getting around that problem. By the way, I was not knocking failing forward in my post. I was just trying to explain what I believe I don't like about it (I've actually been enjoying having it explained from people like Pemerton here, as they seem to have a strong handle on what it is meant to do and I think I understand why people like it).
 

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