Fair trade? Rogue's sneak attack for bard spellcasting progression

[Terath Ninir]

These aren't even. Bard spells are way better then sneak attack.

How so? And if so, why are there so many more rogues than bards?

No, unless you've got a better argument than that, *I* don't buy it.

 

[Crothian]

How so? And if so, why are there so many more rogues than bards?

No, unless you've got a better argument than that, *I* don't buy it.

Okay, let's see what each class offers

Same HD, same BAB

Rogue, better in the skills, bard better in s the saves

Bard gets spells, music, bard knowledge

rogue gets:
trapfinding/sense, sneak attack, evasion, uncannydodge (improved), 4 feats/special abilities

So, the rogue gives up a good ability, but gets a much better one, Bards spells are the best part of that class easily.

If sneak attack is worth Bard spells then Badic lore and Bardic musice = trapfinding/sense, evasion, uncannydodge (improved), 4 feats/special abilities

And that's not even close tp being equal.

 

[Terath Ninir]

First off, the 4 feats/special abilities don't really count on the balance equation. I've never seen a thief played that many levels. They only count if you get them.

Trapfinding/sense means YOU have to disarm the trap. Like access to healing spells, this is not really a *benefit*. It's more of a duty. Wizards have to throw fireballs, fighters have to be meat shields, clerics have to heal everyone all the time, and rogues have to disarm traps. Trapfinding/sense just mitigates the penalties of the rogue's obligation.

That leaves evasion and uncanny dodge, which I'd put as equal to bardic music and lore. Sure, lots of people don't use them as effectively, but that's their fault, not the ability's fault.

 

[Crothian]

The feats count, if a character gets there or not doesn't matter. We are comparing the classes not the classes as they exist in your or my campaign.

Trapsense is an ability, no one else can do it. It doesn't have to be his job, it is just what he is best at. And yes, clerics ability toi heal is a benefit. All classes have benfits. That's what we are compairting.

Or if we toss out trap sense and the feats then we have to toss out Bardic Lore and Knowldge, cause that';s what a bard does.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Healing spells aren't a benefit because if you have them, at least half your actions in combat are going to *be* them. Which gets real dull real fast. And being able to disarm traps is REALLY not a benefit, even with Evasion. Granted, a 3e rogue tends to live longer than a 2e thief, but it's still a leading cause of messy, gory death.

I don't think a class can be "balanced" if the high level abilities are supposed to make up for the low level ones.

And now the killing blow: since this is the House Rules forum, what goes on in our campaigns DOES, in fact, trump the general case. If I know that no one in my campaign will play more than 5 or so rogue levels, then the levels above it don't matter in balance equations. 'Cause the general case doesn't matter; all that matters is what happens at my table.

 

[Gnome]

I don't think you're putting enough value on the bardic music ability. It's not just one ability, but 9 seperate abilities at various levels that use the same mechanic.

 

[Crothian]

Healing spells aren't a benefit because if you have them, at least half your actions in combat are going to *be* them. Which gets real dull real fast. And being able to disarm traps is REALLY not a benefit, even with Evasion. Granted, a 3e rogue tends to live longer than a 2e thief, but it's still a leading cause of messy, gory death.

If healing is not a benefit then removing it totallly from the class should have no impact on the class or how the game is played. But somehow I imagine it would. Each class has unique abilities, that is why they are expected to use them.

And now the killing blow: since this is the House Rules forum, what goes on in our campaigns DOES, in fact, trump the general case. If I know that no one in my campaign will play more than 5 or so rogue levels, then the levels above it don't matter in balance equations. 'Cause the general case doesn't matter; all that matters is what happens at my table.

Wrong. All the matters it Gnome's table, it is his thread.

In your case you just made it so that you can't possible judge the rogue fairly since you discount levels 6-20. If all that matters is your own table and no one elses, then you shouldn't be giving other people advice for use at their table.

 

[Crothian]

I don't think you're putting enough value on the bardic music ability. It's not just one ability, but 9 seperate abilities at various levels that use the same mechanic.

But since they all come from the same pool of bardic songs per day, it is grouped together. Just like the Bardic spells are really powerful, cover many different spell levels and one has choices from 20 different books, but it is just lumped into one ability.

 

[Terath Ninir]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. You can keep your wrong opinion, and I can keep my right one.


I'll post that list when I have it. SRD cut-and-paste, here I come!

 

[Crothian]

if you want to limit it to levels 1-5 of both th bard and rogue, the sneak attack is actually going to be better. Bard spelsl at that level are good, but not as good as sneak attack. But sneak attack gets linerally more powerful, where spelsl get expodentially more powerful. The difference between a 6th level spell and a second level, then a 3d6 sneak attack verse a 7d6 sneak attack.