D&D 5E Fallen Paladin of torm redemption help

[GHammy26]

A player of mine is a Paladin of Torm and role-plays brilliantly. He likes writing out contracts (in the real world) for jobs that he does in game and getting the quest givers (in this case Lord Nighthill from HotDQ) to sign it after ironing out all of the details.

I (in my DM status) am usually occupied with other things such as the other players talking and asking questions while he writes these up so he usually gives me 'costs' for the different things needed to be done and we barter a bit and then sign the contract. I skim the contract believing that he has put down what we agreed and then sign with the quest givers signature. He and another player have used this to their advantage recently, as we agreed that 1000gp to search out the dragon hatchery was far too much and we eventually agreed on 300gp instead.

Now when the paladin started to write out the contract and gave it to me the other player started doing silly stuff to grab my attention such as asking what was in the room and if they could pick up the table or pickpocket a horse, etc. just silly stuff that made the others giggle a little. I was given the contract and all the numbers were as we agreed from a quick glance so I signed and gave it back. The paladin then laughed with an evil grin, let the others have a look and then sealed it with wax (he takes this seriously). I was absolutely clueless on how I’d ‘dropped the ball’ until one of the other players let me know what had happened.

He put 300pp instead of 300gp giving them in total 3000gp for their mission...

Anyway, I was furious with myself for letting him get away with that, not just because of the cheekiness but the Lord would have had a notary (could have used one of the trustworthy players) or something to make sure he wasn’t getting screwed over so my RP was depressingly rubbish.

I’ve decided that he's not going to be fallen yet as he may come clean and just take the gold he originally agreed (300gp) which is fine and the contract could just be him helping the lord realise his naivety or some other nonsense he’ll probably sprout.

I’ll only make him fall if he accepts the money after revealing what he's done to the lord and badgering him for the money...

What I want to ask you guys is:

1) What should happen to a fallen lvl 6 paladin? I think he should just lose his spells/prayers as he is still a decent fighter without them.

2) How could he redeem himself?

Thanks,
G

 

[Horwath]

What oath does he have?

If it's devotion or crown he will definitely fall, maybe with ancient.

Not likely with vengeance(depending who he had ripped off).

for atonement he should return/not take extra money. maybe even not take anything as a deed of repentance.

maybe some minor quest for his church to get back to the grace of Torm.

 

[Noctem]

I would just admit that the group got me and say the following if the group was being serious and actually expecting the contract to be honored.

"Ok guys you got me with the contract. I was busy running the game so I didn't notice the change to PP. That being said, there's no way the NPC would not have a notary look over the contract with care. So what we will do is this: I'll increase the reward for the quest to 400 GP and we can move forward. However, as much as the contracts are fun and cool RP, it's not so much fun for me when the group tries to play gotcha like that with them. I've got a lot to manage already, so if I can't trust you guys with the contract stuff then we're going to have to stop physically writing them up and just have it be a pure RP element. I just don't have the time to carefully look over every contract you hand me to make sure you're not trying to pull a fast one."

If they weren't being serious and it was more tongue in cheek I would still congratulate them for pulling a fast one on me and then ask them not to do it again. Either way though, there's no need to try and get revenge on anyone in the group. You're the DM, you're not there to punish the players or make the Paladin lose his oath. Act like an adult and simply move on together as a group.

 

[Shiroiken]

I'd suggest a visitation (possibly in the form of a dream or vision) by a celestial agent of Torm. Torm is a god of valor, not of petty haggling. This paladin has been toeing the line already, regardless of his oath. I'd have the celestial attempt to set him straight (showing him visions of the Wall of the Faithless or the torments of the domain of Myrkul), and warn him that Torm doesn't suffer fools who abuse his blessings. This should hopefully bring the player back in line.

If the player continues down this path, I'd suggest he begin to lose his powers. I'd start with his Holy Aura, then I'd take away Smite. If that doesn't work, I'd have lay on hands no longer work on the paladin (or his allies) so long as they are under a "contract." I'd start having spells fail unexpectedly. Finally, I'd have his be unable to gain a level in the Paladin class.

I'd start having fiends approach the paladin (possibly in the form of a dream or vision), offering him the blessings of an evil deity, who'd be happy to take the paladin in (switching to the Oathbreaker sub-class). You might consider having a non-evil deity do the same, assuming it's more appropriate to his attitude (such as Waukeen).

 

[GHammy26]

What oath does he have?

If it's devotion or crown he will definitely fall, maybe with ancient.

Not likely with vengeance(depending who he had ripped off).

for atonement he should return/not take extra money. maybe even not take anything as a deed of repentance.

maybe some minor quest for his church to get back to the grace of Torm.

It is vengeance that he has but we don't really pay attention to those things in our group...
I was thinking of a minor quest for his church would be good, but I don't know what the church of Torm would ask of him.

I would just admit that the group got me and say the following if the group was being serious and actually expecting the contract to be honored.

"Ok guys you got me with the contract. I was busy running the game so I didn't notice the change to PP. That being said, there's no way the NPC would not have a notary look over the contract with care. So what we will do is this: I'll increase the reward for the quest to 400 GP and we can move forward. However, as much as the contracts are fun and cool RP, it's not so much fun for me when the group tries to play gotcha like that with them. I've got a lot to manage already, so if I can't trust you guys with the contract stuff then we're going to have to stop physically writing them up and just have it be a pure RP element. I just don't have the time to carefully look over every contract you hand me to make sure you're not trying to pull a fast one."

If they weren't being serious and it was more tongue in cheek I would still congratulate them for pulling a fast one on me and then ask them not to do it again. Either way though, there's no need to try and get revenge on anyone in the group. You're the DM, you're not there to punish the players or make the Paladin lose his oath. Act like an adult and simply move on together as a group.

Yeah I agree and that's what i'll be doing but if he badgers me saying it was in the contract etc then I'll make him fallen. i remember in the 'return to the temple of elemental evil' game on the pc that your paladin becomes fallen if he partakes in a drinking contest which I thought was a bit overzealous, so tricking a lord whose town as recently been ransacked out of what wealth he has is definite grounds for the title of fallen. Also one of Torms rules is to respect your leaders etc, just goes well that he falls.

I'd suggest a visitation (possibly in the form of a dream or vision) by a celestial agent of Torm. Torm is a god of valor, not of petty haggling. This paladin has been toeing the line already, regardless of his oath. I'd have the celestial attempt to set him straight (showing him visions of the Wall of the Faithless or the torments of the domain of Myrkul), and warn him that Torm doesn't suffer fools who abuse his blessings. This should hopefully bring the player back in line.

If the player continues down this path, I'd suggest he begin to lose his powers. I'd start with his Holy Aura, then I'd take away Smite. If that doesn't work, I'd have lay on hands no longer work on the paladin (or his allies) so long as they are under a "contract." I'd start having spells fail unexpectedly. Finally, I'd have his be unable to gain a level in the Paladin class.

I'd start having fiends approach the paladin (possibly in the form of a dream or vision), offering him the blessings of an evil deity, who'd be happy to take the paladin in (switching to the Oathbreaker sub-class). You might consider having a non-evil deity do the same, assuming it's more appropriate to his attitude (such as Waukeen).

You read my mind exactly letting him know what he's done wrong and where he is going if he carries on down that path. As for the spells failing this mission I LOVE that idea, just having one fail randomly would be brilliant, it'd be sort of a foreboding feeling too.

I've figured out the process of making him fallen and the points he'll have to cross before he is fallen.

What quest or for of repentance would a fallen paladin of torm have to do to get back in his good graces?

He's thinking about forming his own adventuring company, i was thinking about the celestial being letting him keep the gold to set up his company but it would have to be a charitable/non-profit company... Thoughts?

 

[Noctem]

Well if he gives you grief about the contract after you explain what I suggested (if that's what you do), ask him what the goal of tricking the lord (and you) was? Is it that he wants to RP his Paladin having Torm become displeased with him (and explain what torm expects from his followers)? Try to open a discussion instead of just falling into an argument. The player might simply not realize that he can lose Torm's favor for example with his actions. He might actually want that to happen but just hasn't communicated it clearly.

But honestly whenever I've seen contracts be brought up and stuff like what's been going on in your group, it's only been a matter of time before either the players or the DM tries to pull a fast one. Which is why I would first assume that it was tongue in cheek and not meant to be serious. First step though is having a discussion with the group before having consequences happen.

 

[Halivar]

Nighthill tells the paladin that the town does not have 3000 gold. Also, he is pissed at the paladin for being deceitful. Since this is a paladin of Torm, you should inform him that he feels the eyes of Torm on him, and he should act accordingly. If the money is still demanded, the town pays what they have (1,200 gp, most of it from the orphans' fund), and the paladin is immediately stripped of powers for failing to seek "righteousness, honesty, loyalty and truth" (the tenants of Torm) or at least just one of the four.

Also, as Noctem says, I would immediately cease the contract thing. Word gets around that the ex-paladin is untrustworthy, and any future contracts are written by agents of the quest-giver. "Oh no, we know about what you did with Lord Nighthall. We will prepare the contract." His alignment, if you play with this sort of thing, moves to true neutral (as he is neither good, nor lawful).

I guess I don't really feel like playing around with this kind of crap. I might take the paladin player aside and ask him how the heck his character became a paladin in the first place. I guess I take my paladins very seriously.

 

[Sunseeker]

Distracting the Lord to get him to not pay attention to a bad contract is okay to do in game (not from a Paladin perspective, but I mean as a matter of gameplay and RP). Distracting the DM to get him to screw up is NEVER okay. I agree wit [MENTION=6801315]Noctem[/MENTION] on this one. Before any punishments are meted out, you need to firmly warn the particular players who did this that pulling a fast one on the DM is not cool and as he says, if you can't be trusted to not use this fun exercise in role-play to try and scam the DM, then it's going to stop being a thing at all.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

As the DM, you do have the ability to rule that that a specific event causes a Paladin to fall, just like a specific event could cause the Wixard to lose her ability to spellcast. However, you're stepping outside the written rules and into "Because I'm the DM and I say so" or houserules territory.

Remember that its the Oath that grants the Paladin's power. They don't necessarily need to follow any god. Even if the Oath was sworn to a god, that doesn't make that god's tenets anything to do with the Paladin's powers.
If he breaks the tenets of the Oath of Vengeance: if he sidetracks rather than continuing to pursue the object that he swore vengeance against, or similar, then that will break his oath. Doing something that would slightly annoy Torm (its not even directly against his tenets) isn't going to have any impact on their Paladinhood.

What alignment is the Paladin? Its not a Good or Lawful act, but if they are Chaotic its well within possibility. Again though: Paladinhood isn't connected to alignment.

To decide that the Paladin should fall smacks more of you trying to get revenge on the player personally for putting one over you rather than a DM adjudicating the game world fairly.

Firstly: talk to your players. Find out whether it was a joke, or whether they expect the contract as written to be honoured.

If they're going to insist on it standing, then let it stand with all of the appropriate consequences. Deal with it In Character as the Lord of the city.

Have the Lord not realise the that they had changed the contract until they return and demand payment. Have him ask them them in-character whether their purpose was really to swindle him, and to explain their actions.

"Well, I distinctly recall us agreeing upon a price of three hundred Gold pieces to perform the service. Yet this contract states three hundred platinum pieces. So I ask you, Sir Paladin: Which is stronger; your word as a servant of Torm and a Paladin, or this piece of paper? Hmmm?"

Even if the Lord is lawful, and thus would feel obliged to honour it even if it was not the amount verbally agreed upon, it is a lot of money. The Lord may point out that the treasury may not have those reserves and to make that payment will require diverting funds from charitable donations to the poor/tithes to the churches/funds allocated to the defence of the city.

To really twist the knife:

"Now, it would seem that we have a further dragon problem. However I no longer have the funds set aside to hire adventurers of your caliber to deal with them, and I could hardly continue to fund known swindlers: a fact that I intend to make very public indeed.
"Therefore we shall have to hope that casualties will be as small as can reasonably be expected among the peasants and farmers until another group of more righteous adventurers occur who would be willing to protect the innocent."

Or:
"Fortunately, when I approached the Church of Torm for advice as to how to handle this matter, they were both extremely accommodating and rather shocked. They swore to make up the difference out of their own funds as soon as they could sell the relics required to raise that amount. They also granted me a gratifyingly abject and humble apology for the conduct of Torm's alleged servant."

Or:
"This man you see before you was the notary to whom these matters were entrusted and who failed to see your little change in the contract. His dereliction of duty and incompetence has cost the city dearly and we are now in debt for years to come. His guilt is not in question; the punishment prescribed by law for such treason is disfigurement and exile/sale into slavery to help recoup the costs/execution* for him and his family. As the servant of righteousness and law closest to the matter, Sir Paladin, it falls to you to carry out the sentence.
"If you will not, we can send to the Church for a real champion or Torm to uphold the Law."

*Pick whichever according to laws of the area/inclinations or alignment of the Lord/ or your level of sadism.

 

[Jaelommiss]

Normally I wouldn't give advice like this, but since they decided as players to screw with the DM, they have implicitly given consent for the DM to screw with them in the same way. Others have touched on how to deal with the paladin as a paladin, so I'll focus on some other ways you could dissuade the party from repeating this.

Does the contract specify what form the payment takes? If not, 300pp could be legitimately interpreted as a value, and as such could be paid in virtually any form so long as it has that value.

When the party returns I would have the lord pay them 300gp in coins promptly and with no hesitation. When the party asks for more and shows him the contract, he will ask for time (a day or two) to sort out payment, and ask for the 300gp back so that he can make payment in a single lump sum.

The town's lord no doubt has someone in his employ who appraises property value. Nighthill commands him to appraise a 1 square foot section of field on the outskirts of town, with an undocumented command to give it a value of 300pp. The party is awarded this single square foot of land. The land is then reappraised.

The lord finds an old bench from down in the dungeons. It is estimated to be well over 200 years old. The party is given this 'antique' as payment.

The party is given 300pp worth of bedroom rental in the castle. At 10gp per night per room, they are awarded 300 room-nights. Given a party of 4 PCs, that is 75 days of room and board. Yes, those days count down when they are absent.

Did the contract specify WHEN payment would be made? If not, then it could be delayed indefinitely. The lord will pay them 300pp in the next life.

And, of course, for being a bunch of charlatans the lord will declare that the town is in a state of emergency and can confiscate anything from anyone in town for the good of the town. Yes, that includes the PCs, their hard earned loot, their weapons and armour, their holy symbols, their magic foci, etc. The PCs will only be told this when they are alone, and two dozen guards will be present to enforce it.


Really hammer home that messing with people with political and social power is a VERY BAD idea if you don't want this happening again.

Would it be possible to get a copy of the contract? I'd really like to see how else it can be twisted.