Fallen Paladins

[JacktheRabbit]

Does a Paladin retain any of his abilities when he loses his status due to alignment change?

The book says he loses all special abilities but does that mean he loses absolutely everything?

How about?

Lay on hands - Spell like ability
Detect Evil - Spell Like Ability
Saving throw bonus from charisma - Doesnt say what kind of ability this is.

Opinions?

 

[pontus]

Lay on hands - Gone
Detect Evil - Gone
Divine Grace - Gone (I think it's supernatural)

The abilities were granted to the paladin by a divine power, and he sure as hell doesn't get to keep them.

 

[Epametheus]

Actually, yeah, the Paladin loses everything beyond base attack bonus, skills, hit points, weapon/armor proficiencies, and base saving throws. Everything else is gone. In other words, a fallen paladin is simply a warrior (as per the DMG) who rolled d10's for his HP.

I'm not quite sure what to do with the paladin's mount.. Quite possibly have it still retain its intelligence and abilities, but refuse to have anything further to do with its former rider -- possibly even leaving to answer some other paladin's call for a mount.

Or it could just go back to being a dumb animal, losing all of the powers it had gained from association with the former paladin. This -- the loss of powers -- might be the better option, especially if the paladin had spent a feat on Leadership so that he could have a sentient creature as the mount. This is probably more practical.

Hmm.. Did the PC you were complaining about a few weeks ago finally get stripped of his paladin-hood?

 

[Marius Delphus]

Naughty Ex-Paladin!

IMC, a fallen paladin loses every "special" ability, period (including all three examples DocM mentions above), and becomes unable to gain any more paladin levels. Additionally, the paladin's mount, if one had been called, flees, never to be seen again; also, the paladin can no longer use the extra abilities of a holy avenger. Ex-paladins keep, at a minimum, their BAB, HD, skills, proficiencies, feats, saving throw bonuses, and level-based attribute score increases (if any). If I forgot anything, they also keep anything else that's not a "special ability" granted by the paladin class.

IIRC, fallen 1E and 2E paladins were retroactively converted into fighters, but I'm fairly sure that's not what's intended by the 3E rules. For instance, in the Blackguard PrC description in the DMG, the table concerning fallen paladins (the "11+" entry) says, in effect, that there's a net benefit to exchanging paladin levels for blackguard levels because, though you still have paladin levels, you're not getting any of your former special abilities out of them (extra blackguard granted powers aside), so you might as well trade them in.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Nope this is something different. I was using that rather dismal program from the PHB to create a rather odd character. I created him as a Paladin but then changed his alignment to CG and had him pick up ranger and bard levels.

This made him an ex-paladin due to alignment which is what I intended. The only thing is while it revoked all his abilities he still retained his saving throw bonuses from Charisma.

I was just wondering if this was a flaw in the program (nothing new) or if this ability did not go away since it is not listed as a particular kind of ability.

 

[smilinggm]

From The SRD:
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells, including the service of the paladin's warhorse. She also may not progress in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities if she atones for her violations, as appropriate.

This is pretty clear to me "looses all special abilities and spells" means looses everythinng. As for the bonded mount It will go away unitll the palidin in quiestion atones and calls it back.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Read up further though and you see that the saving throw bonus is not called a special ability.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You lose divine grace (the Cha bonus to saves) when you become an ex-paladin. You keep only normal armor and weapon proficiencies, HD, skills, and base saves.