D&D 5E Falling below zero HP and Exhaustion mechanic

[Blue]

Oh gods, please google the half dozen threads where this exact idea has already been discussed to death.

1. The first thing exhaustion does is make you have disadvantage on skill rolls. Skill roles are the #1 mechanical interface for every other pillar of play besides combat. So dropping in combat will make you want to solve more things with combat, because you now suck at everything else for the rest of the day.

Solutions seen:
A. Don't use exhaustion.
B. Redo the exhaustion chart to be longer and have less effect-everything options first.
C. Have that specific type of exhaustion go away with a short rest.

2. Exhaustion is really hard to get rid of. You will suck for the rest of the day with just one, but once you have more it gets even uglier. Multiple days down, and you still have the chance to get more. Heck, in a battle with area of effects going off, the worst thing a character could do would be to heal you, since you'll go down again soon and then have two levels of exhaustion.

Solutions seen:
A. Don't use exhaustion.
B. Give more ways to recover exhaustion during the day & recover more exhaustion with a long rest.

3. Some characters specifically put themselves at more risk for the good of the party. Consider the melee fighter vs. the archer fighter. Both based on the same chassis, but the one trying to be a front line so the glass cannons don't get squished is more likely to go down. You you're providing a dis-intensive to playing certain types of characters.

Solution:
A. Don't penalize characters for taking one for the team in the first place.
B. Grant buffs to certain types of characters to offset the nerfs. Alternately allow those characters to ignore the first X levels of penalty. Note that this is not by class, so figuring out whom to grant is non-trivial.

4. D&D is a team game, and a game with randomness. Going down is usually not the sole fault of player who's character goes down. A giant with a crit, a healer who picks the wrong target to heal, a tank out of position so your wizard gets closed with. Yet the penalty is that the single character will suck at all skill checks for the rest of the day.

Solutions:
A. Recognize that characters will go down outside their control and don't de-buff them for the rest of the day *at least) for it.

The easiest solution that fits all of these is to give some other penalty that only lasts for the combat they went down in.

 

[5ekyu]

I use the common houserule of One Level of Exhaustion each time a PC dips below 0 HP. I've seldom had a PC drop below 0 HP more than once per encounter.

The first level of Exhaustion isn't really that punishing (Disadvantage on Ability Checks) if people remember that Attack rolls and Saving Throws are NOT Ability Checks (per Sage Advice). It's also why Level Three calls out Attack Rolls and Saving Throws.

Are attack rolls and saving throws basically specialized ability checks?
They aren’t. It’s easy to mistake the three rolls as three faces of the same thing, because they each involve rolling a d20, adding any modifiers, and comparing the total to a Difficulty Class, and they’re all subject to advantage and disadvantage. In short, they share the same procedure for determining success or failure.

Despite this common procedure, the three rolls are separate from each other. If something in the game, like the guidance spell, affects one of them, the other two aren’t affected unless the rules specifically say so.

Yeah. It's definitely a play-style that might not mesh with everyone. We like it, but we can be weird. Heh.

Also:

It had me come up with Vitality Potions that cure levels of Exhaustion (basic 1d4, Greater 1d4+1, Superior 1d4+2, Supreme 1d4+3). They're expensive though.

Greater Restoration can also remove a level of Exhaustion per the rules. We've house ruled that Healing Domain Clerics add +1 level of Exhaustion removed for each of the Restoration spells.

We've also kinda houseruled sorta that the better accommodations you stay in remove increased levels of Exhaustion up to 3 levels per night. So Squalid & Poor (camping tents, sleeping rolls out in the open, etc. fall in here) removes 1 level, Modest and Comfortable (Tiny Hut falls in here) removes 2 levels, Wealthy & Aristocratic (Magnificent Mansion is in here) removes 3 levels.

Yup. I think one of the bigger whammies for exhaustion 1 is the disad on perceptions and initiative. Those combine to be frequently a serious hit for encounter starts.

Not surprised to see adding ways to clear exhaustion when you add more ways to get it. Seems a common pairing.

 

[iserith]

How often are PCs dropping to 0 hp in your game such that a house rule is needed? My experience is that it doesn't happen very often once past apprentice tier and my challenges can be very difficult.

 

[5ekyu]

Oh gods, please google the half dozen threads where this exact idea has already been discussed to death.

1. The first thing exhaustion does is make you have disadvantage on skill rolls. Skill roles are the #1 mechanical interface for every other pillar of play besides combat. So dropping in combat will make you want to solve more things with combat, because you now suck at everything else for the rest of the day.

Solutions seen:
A. Don't use exhaustion.
B. Redo the exhaustion chart to be longer and have less effect-everything options first.
C. Have that specific type of exhaustion go away with a short rest.

2. Exhaustion is really hard to get rid of. You will suck for the rest of the day with just one, but once you have more it gets even uglier. Multiple days down, and you still have the chance to get more. Heck, in a battle with area of effects going off, the worst thing a character could do would be to heal you, since you'll go down again soon and then have two levels of exhaustion.

Solutions seen:
A. Don't use exhaustion.
B. Give more ways to recover exhaustion during the day & recover more exhaustion with a long rest.

3. Some characters specifically put themselves at more risk for the good of the party. Consider the melee fighter vs. the archer fighter. Both based on the same chassis, but the one trying to be a front line so the glass cannons don't get squished is more likely to go down. You you're providing a dis-intensive to playing certain types of characters.

Solution:
A. Don't penalize characters for taking one for the team in the first place.
B. Grant buffs to certain types of characters to offset the nerfs. Alternately allow those characters to ignore the first X levels of penalty. Note that this is not by class, so figuring out whom to grant is non-trivial.

4. D&D is a team game, and a game with randomness. Going down is usually not the sole fault of player who's character goes down. A giant with a crit, a healer who picks the wrong target to heal, a tank out of position so your wizard gets closed with. Yet the penalty is that the single character will suck at all skill checks for the rest of the day.

Solutions:
A. Recognize that characters will go down outside their control and don't de-buff them for the rest of the day *at least) for it.

The easiest solution that fits all of these is to give some other penalty that only lasts for the combat they went down in.

Cannot argue with any of these and will emphasize #4. Most often PCs going to zero is not ftom their choices alone or even much at all. It might be from a crit sequence or stuff like that.

But, it is interesting to imagine some very serious tactical exploits. PC drops, then an enemy cleric uses healing word and an attack cantrip to put them to zero a second time causing another level of exhaustion. This is better than trying to rack up death saves because any healing word from the PCs flush those, but its exhaustion that keeps carrying over.

I mean, unless allies can actually slap major heals on... this can get weird pretty quick.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

How often are PCs dropping to 0 hp in your game such that a house rule is needed? My experience is that it doesn't happen very often once past apprentice tier and my challenges can be very difficult.

It's a very rare event in the games I run as the players really do their best to stack the deck in their favor before engaging the enemy: scouting, fact finding, etc. Really, the threat of gaining a level of Exhaustion is more fear inducing than being killed! Ha!

Oh gods, please google the half dozen threads where this exact idea has already been discussed to death.

Or you could just ignore a thread that you don't really have any interest in instead of telling others how and what to post? I mean, there's no reason to be openly hostile and rude to the OP.

The easiest solution that fits all of these is to give some other penalty that only lasts for the combat they went down in.

Nah. The easiest solution is just to play the game RAW. But to build more constructively on this, perhaps have such "Combat Exhaustion" recovered on a short rest? Or have the PC lose a temporary point of Con or some such that's recovered with rest? So many options if the whole "wack-a-mole" thing bothers you.

I can understand why others would really not like our houserule (Blue, for example). But we (my gaming group) really like it for some odd reason, so I thought I'd share how we do it with the OP.

 

[Retreater]

I had this very issue several times during a game I ran this weekend. During a climactic encounter with a solo green dragon, there were a couple of times when the ranger and paladin both dropped. A bonus action from the cleric mitigated all threat to a dying character and allowed them to jump back into the fight immediately. Then a mass cure wounds stabilized, healed, and got every character back into the fight. There was absolutely zero threat of character death - no one beyond one failed death save.
I'm wondering if house ruling that first curative magic stabilizes a dying character, then the next one restores actual HP? Or maybe that it takes a full move to stand up from prone? Or maybe give a character a maximum number of death saving throw failures of the course of their adventuring career?
This is one of the mechanics that makes 5e too easy. Needs some serious house ruling.

 

[iserith]

It's a very rare event in the games I run as the players really do their best to stack the deck in their favor before engaging the enemy: scouting, fact finding, etc. Really, the threat of gaining a level of Exhaustion is more fear inducing than being killed! Ha!

I'm trying to figure out like how often are people dropping in games that a house rule to ostensibly combat that is seen as desirable. I don't see it happen very often and so I wonder if there's not something else going on that could do with addressing rather than adding a house rule. What is happening at these tables that is not happening at mine, I wonder? Either the frequency of unconscious PCs is higher for some reason or the tolerance for it happening is lower. Or something.

 

[5ekyu]

I had this very issue several times during a game I ran this weekend. During a climactic encounter with a solo green dragon, there were a couple of times when the ranger and paladin both dropped. A bonus action from the cleric mitigated all threat to a dying character and allowed them to jump back into the fight immediately. Then a mass cure wounds stabilized, healed, and got every character back into the fight. There was absolutely zero threat of character death - no one beyond one failed death save.
I'm wondering if house ruling that first curative magic stabilizes a dying character, then the next one restores actual HP? Or maybe that it takes a full move to stand up from prone? Or maybe give a character a maximum number of death saving throw failures of the course of their adventuring career?
This is one of the mechanics that makes 5e too easy. Needs some serious house ruling.

Or a low to middling npc followsa drop with a chill touch that not only gives anothere death save fail but also blocks heals for a bit?

There are reasons for minions.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Either the frequency of unconscious PCs is higher for some reason or the tolerance for it happening is lower. Or something.

Possibly.

For my groups sake, I suspect that dropping is actually rarer than most groups because I run such an over-the-top, gonzo, beer-n-pretzels type game where it is nearly impossible (but not completely) to die. I prefer Defeated rather than Killed. Our particular games would drive those looking for more "realistic," serious games INSANE! For example, one of the reasons we like Greyhawk is that one of the contries is called the Grand Duchy of Geoff. HA! And one of the main setting NPCs packs Wild West Revolvers! And a male, elf wizard is called Melf.

Our houserule was actually suggested by one of the players who had the buy-in from the other players so I ran with it. So I'm not exactly sure what flowchart/algorithm/etc. was used to come up to the point where we're at. I know that it almost never (I think only once) has had an impact on the NPCs.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm trying to figure out like how often are people dropping in games that a house rule to ostensibly combat that is seen as desirable. I don't see it happen very often and so I wonder if there's not something else going on that could do with addressing rather than adding a house rule. What is happening at these tables that is not happening at mine, I wonder? Either the frequency of unconscious PCs is higher for some reason or the tolerance for it happening is lower. Or something.

I think it's more the gamification of it being too absurd. I've seen games where the players realize getting hit for 42 hp with one hit point left is the same as having 41 hit points & then kinda playing pingpong up/down/up/down. In my game I use potion flasks & rebalanced potion benefits. Drink from a potion flask & roll your flask die (d6 or d8 for most of my table), If you get anything but a one great roll your healing, if you get a one roll your healing & your flask die drops a die size (ie d8 d6 d4 1). The healing from that flask is 2hd+2 but my players still act like drinking it in combat is beneath them because they can just soak it. As a result, the death saves they pile up only clear 1/long rest. It's really their own fault if they even go down under those conditions.