False dichotomies and other fallacies RPGers use

[Fifth Element]

EDIT: Really, it was just supposed to be an extreme example to demonstrate the problems with the "you must accept what I say my experience is without subjecting it to critical thinking" meme.

One more time for old time's sake (before I finally put you on ignore, for everyone's sake): I guess the problem here is that you consider "critical thinking" to include "if it's not in my experience, it can't happen." That, I'm afraid, is not critical thinking, because it includes the rather uncritical idea that your experience is universal.

 

[ggroy]

This could literally not be less true.

Agreed. The few areas where "logic does ignore people's personal experiences" which I can think of offhand, would be in some areas of pure mathematics.

Otherwise, personal experiences does come into play in many decisions made in practice.

 

[pawsplay]

Well, critical thinking and logic does ignore people's personal experiences and it's all about the argument, and nothing else. There are people who do place an enormous amount of value on logic and critical thinking and end up using it to justify the same thing. So, at least for me, there is no real difference. Logic is simply the beginning of wisdom. And using logic and critical thinking does not automatically make a person more intelligent either.

Well, if adding logic and critical thinking does increase intelligence, then presumably substracting them will not decrease it. So you are saying a person can be intelligent without logic and critical thinking. I think I am going to disagree with that.

 

[pawsplay]

I use to believe something along these lines, until I've met enough people over the years to convince me otherwise. In other words, I've met enough intelligent people who are incredibly unintelligent in many things, and I've met enough "non-intelligent" people who are actually quite "intelligent" in some things.

While I am very comfortable with multiple ways of measuring intelligence, there is basically no way I can agree with the idea that people who read are not more intelligent. I am completely okay with agreeing that people who are unintelligent by some measures have useful abilities.

But reading for pleasure correlates with intelligence. Gaming correlates with intelligence. Gamers regularly use rules-sets bigger than entire high school curricula. Gamers routinely engage in fractions, critical reading, imaginative play.

If you have a good, solid job surrounded by people that don't frustrate you every day with their lack of functionality, you are already substantially sheltered from what "normal" intelligence is. That guy on the busstop who tries to ask you for change but doesn't quite make sense? Average them in. All those kids in special ed you didn't see a lot of in high school? Average them in. The cashier who can't make change by hand? Average them in. People who think New Mexico is a country? Average them in. The people for whom "This is not a safety device" is written on Funnoodle? Average them in.

Have you ever talked with someone with a verified IQ of 85 or lower?

 

[Diamond Cross]

This could literally not be less true.

It's been my experience for many years.

 

[pawsplay]

Agreed. The few areas where "logic does ignore people's personal experiences" which I can think of offhand, would be in some areas of pure mathematics.

Otherwise, personal experiences does come into play in many decisions made in practice.

Even then, I'm sure it seems like common sense stuff, if you happen to be a mathematician. "Oh, that old theorem? I think I know what you're talking about, my old professor used to play with that one..."

 

[pawsplay]

It's been my experience for many years.

Evaluating the experience of several years is, itself, a practice that suggests critical thinking.

 

[Diamond Cross]

there is basically no way I can agree with the idea that people who read are not more intelligent.

Except that there are people who do read and don't think forthemselves, they just pass on what they read.

Example, conspiracy theorists reading any books on any form of conspiracy theory, such as "the moon landing was a hoax".

Or partisan politics. These people just repeat what they've read without thinking about it.

But I think I'm going to stop here because this is bordering on the political.

 

[Fifth Element]

Has anyone mentioned yet what could be called the "Better Way" fallacy? That is, there are better and poorer ways of pretending to be an elf, on anything approaching an objective basis?

 

[ggroy]

Gaming correlates with intelligence. Gamers regularly use rules-sets bigger than entire high school curricula. Gamers routinely engage in fractions, critical reading, imaginative play.

Can the same be said, if the word "gamers"/"gaming" is replaced with something like "Mafia wiseguys", "investment banker", etc ...?

Have you ever talked with someone with a verified IQ of 85 or lower?

I have actually met a few individuals with verified low IQ's.

One such person spent all their time talking about the heavy metal band Metallica, and nothing else.

Another such person, spent all his time drinking and snorting cocaine.