Familair and spells

[Bad Paper]

If you do treat it like counterspell, does that mean I could 'dispel' your held invisibility, but casting invisibility on you? No, right?

This doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean that by dispelling the held spell, you are dispelling the "hold," and the spell proceeds to cast? Like, you're holding a shocking grasp, and when I dispel it, you take the damage? That's not what I'm saying.

I suggest that the holding-ness is a fermata at the end of a musical piece. You are still casting the spell, thus this situation is no different than if I2k starts summoning a monster, and BP hits him with a targetted dispel. I wipe out his active spells, but because I didn't cast the counterspell flavor of Dispel Magic, I do not affect Summon Meanie, which then appears and eviscerates me.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I think this is what Infiniti2000 means: Dispel magic is only one way to counterspell. If you cast invisibility and hold the charge and I see it, I get a free Spellcraft check to identify it even though I don't have a readied action to counterspell it. Then on my next turn (if that comes before you touch someone) since I have an invisibility in memory, I can counterspell your held invisibility with my invisibility by casting it on you as a counterspell..., thus countering your invisibility that hasn't taken effect yet with a counterspelled invisibility.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Bad Paper]

I can counterspell your held invisibility with my invisibility by casting it on you as a counterspell..., thus countering your invisibility that hasn't taken effect yet with a counterspelled invisibility.

Ah! Right! OK, now I see. Hmm! Well, yes, I guess so.

If I cast the "counterspell" flavor of invisibility and get over to touch you, then yes, I suppose so. Here's a (house) rule for you: you can only counterspell something like invisibility at a distance, with your own invisibility, if you use a readied action to do it (or have some fancy way to do it as an immediate action). Otherwise you have to get over there and touchy-touchy, or use something that works at a distance, like dispel magic.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I didn't mention the touch range because it would have made my explanation even more tedious. I never thought of this as an option for counterspelling before (no readied action needed for an instantaneous spell if touch range and spell held) so a house rule about the range of the counterspell seems to be needed. Of course, counterspelling is hardly ever used IMC.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Kieperr]

I don't believe it would work either way.

In order to Counterspell you must have readied an action and chosen a target. Then "If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell" you get to attempt your counterspell. In the case a familiar holding a charge the spell has already been cast by its master. The familiar is not trying to "cast a spell" and, therefore, is not a valid target for Counterspell.

As for a targeted dispel, the familiar is not under the effect of the spell. The Invisibility spell, for example, is not "in effect" because it did not turn the familiar invisible when it was cast. As for the Shocking Grasp, it has already been noted that spells with a duration of instantaneous cannot be dispelled, held or otherwise.

This seems like a quirk in the rules but it does make familiars a little more useful and effective in combat.