Familiars as artillery "spotters"

[Hairfoot]

Good points about line of effect. I think, though, that they're more of a balance mechanic than a magic concept. With indirect fire, you'd have entire parties of sorcerers hiding in bushes and nuking enemies from a mile away.

Delayed blast fireball defies the line of effect rules, as does any spell with a delayed action - alarm, magic mouth, etc. Conceptually, I don't think it would be too difficult for a wizard to research an offensive spell which doesn't go in a straight line, though it would be higher-level.

Fireball wasn't a good example, because it shoots like a bazooka, not a grenade. However, several spells already fire indirectly within line of sight: flaming sphere, ice dagger, Snilloc's snowball, defenestrating sphere...and the trusty magic missile will hit anyone the caster can see.

My rationale comes down to two points:
1. A familiar can deliver touch spells without LOS from the caster, so they must be able to identify targets.
2. An empathic link carries enough information to recognise an item or location, so identifying an enemy isn't a very different task. Identifying a specific enemy would be pushing it.

I can see it creating problems with game balance, but if they were addressed, I don't think it's out of the question.

 

[TheGogmagog]

In thinking how the lobbed spells would work, I had a funny thought inspired by schorched earth:
9th level spell: Deathshead
7th level spell: MIRV
6th level spell: Ton of Dirt
5th level spell: Funky Bomb
4th level spell: Rolling Bomb
3rd level spell: Napalm
1st level spell: (Artillery) Missile

I can't think of the rest, and there might be more interesting ones from the game worms.

 

[TheGogmagog]

But couldn't one conjure a boulder or some lava or something above an enemy- still in the caster's line of sight, but it would fall upon the targets? Especially with Enlarge Spell, you could drop something nasty- but you'd need some help to target the parallel square above the target, hence a spotter.
Some lava or acid dropping on you from 50 ft or so would be pretty nasty.
I not sure something like this is addressed in the rules, so that first sentance actually is a question- could you?

To the first question: Most all spells require you to conjure items on a surface that can support it. So no summoning creatures without a fly speed in the air. There may be a few spells that arn't explicit though, It's my opinion that's the default rule.

You can do spell research for spells or a feat that would bypass this restriction with DM approval. Another spell Idea would be to replicate the arcane archer's seeker ability.

 

[Hairfoot]

In thinking how the lobbed spells would work, I had a funny thought inspired by schorched earth

I'm just stoked that people still play Scorched Earth. Mention Nethack and I'll start weeping.

 

[Jarrod]

Nethack!

Hey, hands off my blessed +3 grey dragon scale mail! Mine! Mine, I say!


On topic... my group had thrown around a metamagic for indirect fire a couple of years ago, but we never did anything more than say "man, that'd be a cool idea". The upgraded version is "setting waypoints". Did I mention we had an X-Com fanatic in the group?

 

[lukelightning]

There still is a certain amount of "artillery" effect of fireballs. I've often seen situation in which a wizard knew there were some people in a room, or around the corner, that sort of thing, and so shoots a fireball in trying to get them in the spread without targetting anyone directly (to avoid an arrow in the eyeball).

I personally would allow a familiar to help target this, but I also give the empathic link more communication, e.g. communicating "lots of people around this corner" or "enemies hiding in the corners of the room" perhaps the images and feelings would be different, but the familiar and master would know each other well enough to communicate more than just "hungry, afraid, angry"

 

[Rackhir]

Delayed blast fireball defies the line of effect rules, as does any spell with a delayed action - alarm, magic mouth, etc. Conceptually, I don't think it would be too difficult for a wizard to research an offensive spell which doesn't go in a straight line, though it would be higher-level.

Actually NONE of these spells defy the line of sight rule. That applies at the time the spell is cast, NOT when it activates.

 

[Hairfoot]

Actually NONE of these spells defy the line of sight rule. That applies at the time the spell is cast, NOT when it activates.

Line of effect. For the purposes I'm describing, they do. The issue with familiar spotting is that line of effect dictates a caster must be looking at the subject to target a spell, because the effect is instantaneous. But clearly some spells have a delayed action, allowing them to take effect indirectly.

 

[irdeggman]

My rationale comes down to two points:
1. A familiar can deliver touch spells without LOS from the caster, so they must be able to identify targets.
2. An empathic link carries enough information to recognise an item or location, so identifying an enemy isn't a very different task. Identifying a specific enemy would be pushing it.

I can see it creating problems with game balance, but if they were addressed, I don't think it's out of the question.

1 - Does not defy LoE since the LoE is the touch itself. Casting touch spells through a familiar is essentially treating the familiar as if it was the caster himself until the spell is discharged.

2 - Really has no effect on anything as far as I can tell.

It would be potentially possible to have familiar give the caster sufficient information to place a spell like fireball cast in the air above a group of foes such that they are in its spread. It would require a high enough level caster to get a familiar with high intelligence and telepathy to relay the information with sufficient detail to work.

Regardless a spell couldn't be lobbed over a wall though. Even though it could be cast such that it affected an area on the other side of the wall.

But the spell is still cast using LoE.

 

[Hairfoot]

1 - Does not defy LoE since the LoE is the touch itself. Casting touch spells through a familiar is essentially treating the familiar as if it was the caster himself until the spell is discharged.

2 - Really has no effect on anything as far as I can tell.

Line of effect isn't the issue, and remains unchanged. I'm talking about using a familiar to establish effective line of sight to a target unseen by the caster. Hence:

Fireball wasn't a good example, because it shoots like a bazooka, not a grenade. However, several spells already fire indirectly within line of sight: flaming sphere, ice dagger, Snilloc's snowball, defenestrating sphere...and the trusty magic missile will hit anyone the caster can see.

If you can tell your familiar "take this shocking grasp, go round the corner, and look for orcs", then obviously the familiar has the smarts to recognise an orc, and sufficient empathy to let the caster know. It doesn't stretch credibility for that familiar to see the orc and convey enough info to let the caster send a magic missile round the corner or over a wall.

I'm not suggesting it would be as simple as regular casting - penalties and risk of failure would apply - but it fits the concept of familiars as assistants.