Familiars as artillery "spotters"

[Rackhir]

Line of effect. For the purposes I'm describing, they do. The issue with familiar spotting is that line of effect dictates a caster must be looking at the subject to target a spell, because the effect is instantaneous. But clearly some spells have a delayed action, allowing them to take effect indirectly.

You must be using some strange new meaning of the word indirect that I was previously unaware of.

 

[irdeggman]

Line of effect isn't the issue, and remains unchanged. I'm talking about using a familiar to establish effective line of sight to a target unseen by the caster. Hence:

If you can tell your familiar "take this shocking grasp, go round the corner, and look for orcs", then obviously the familiar has the smarts to recognise an orc, and sufficient empathy to let the caster know. It doesn't stretch credibility for that familiar to see the orc and convey enough info to let the caster send a magic missile round the corner or over a wall.

I'm not suggesting it would be as simple as regular casting - penalties and risk of failure would apply - but it fits the concept of familiars as assistants.

And you are now firmly into house-rules and not RAW.

Touch attacks are not line of sight either.Ranged touch attacks are, but using a familiar only covers the standard touch attacks.

And now the way you are focusing is way different than your original question using a familiar for "spotting" reference things with "range" in the example.

A familiar delivering a touch spell to a foe that is unseen by the caster is as far as I can tell within the existing rules since it is not a line of effect or a line of sight spell.

 

[Hairfoot]

And you are now firmly into house-rules and not RAW.

Touch attacks are not line of sight either. Ranged touch attacks are, but using a familiar only covers the standard touch attacks.

And now the way you are focusing is way different than your original question using a familiar for "spotting" reference things with "range" in the example.

If it was in the RAW, this thread wouldn't exist! That's why I OPed with a request for articles.

According to a new "rules of the game" article regarding familiars on the WotC website, you can use familiars to deliver ranged touch spells. News to me, but that isn't the topic here.

You'll have to explain that last one. I haven't changed the focus. I don't understand what you mean about range.

 

[irdeggman]

If it was in the RAW, this thread wouldn't exist! That's why I OPed with a request for articles.

According to a new "rules of the game" article regarding familiars on the WotC website, you can use familiars to deliver ranged touch spells. News to me, but that isn't the topic here.

You'll have to explain that last one. I haven't changed the focus. I don't understand what you mean about range.

Does anyone know of any articles or rules addressing the use of familiars as spotters for indirect attack spells?

Say you want to fire a magic missile at someone around a corner, or throw a fireball over a wall into a group of orcs. How would you use a familiar to relay the position of a target?

Line of effect. For the purposes I'm describing, they do. The issue with familiar spotting is that line of effect dictates a caster must be looking at the subject to target a spell, because the effect is instantaneous. But clearly some spells have a delayed action, allowing them to take effect indirectly.

Line of effect isn't the issue, and remains unchanged. I'm talking about using a familiar to establish effective line of sight to a target unseen by the caster.

Again – what is your definition of line of effect? It is not the same as line of sight, although the two can be at times.

It is possible to cast an area affecting spell to a place you can’t see as long there is a line of effect to the end point of the spell (prime example is fireball).

Magic missile requires a line of effect that is the also a line of sight. So you can’t cast a magic missile into a room you can’t see inside of unless you can see the target (oh and there still can’t be anything blocking the line of effect – like say an invisible wall).



From SRD:

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

So you didn’t need Rules of the Game on this one at all – it is already clearly laid out in the PHB (seepage 53)

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The rules are actually pretty precise on this topic and unless something willallow a caster to cast a spell through his familiar (other than a touch spell) then he can't do it.

If a familiar can assist the caster with "targeting" an area for effect then the familiar can do it.

The caster still needs to maintain the proper line of effect to cast the spell.

 

[Hairfoot]

Hang on. First you said...

Touch attacks are not line of sight either. Ranged touch attacks are, but using a familiar only covers the standard touch attacks.

Then I offered some evidence to the contrary, and you wrote

So you didn’t need Rules of the Game on this one at all – it is already clearly laid out in the PHB (seepage 53)

The PHB doesn't specify which touch spells are eligible. That's why the article mentions it.

Perhaps I've misunderstood, but are you interested in a discussion about the possibilities of using familiars, or are you now caught up in contradicting anything I say, even if it means contradicting yourself?

There's little point quoting the SRD when when I've already stressed that I'm looking at options outside the RAW.

The magic missile example is perfect. I'm talking about using a familiar in the room as the effective line of sight for a caster outside the room. In a MM's line of effect it can go around cover, so it could around corners or over walls as long as the distance travelled is within medium range.

In the case of fireball (or lightning bolt), that would be less effective, because the line of effect is always in a straight line from the caster.

If a familiar can assist the caster with "targeting" an area for effect then the familiar can do it.

And that's the crux of it. The question is whether an empathic link can reasonably pinpoint a location for targeting. e.g. could the familiar tell its master which 10'x10' space to roll a flaming sphere into in a 100'x100' courtyard? More iffy is whether the familiar could pinpoint individual creatures for something like the magic missile.

I was thinking more of blasting spells, but modifying line of effect for others could be managed. A caster can't say "I think I hear kobolds behind this door. I cast sleep in the room I can't see". But I'd accept a caster saying "my weasel's in there and can see monsters. I'll see if he can give me a good-enough impression to throw sleep."

The sleep spell has no form until it manifests as an effect, so I'd allow it to pass minor barriers, like door, but not a thick stone wall. Fireball, however, exists as a pellet that shoots at the target, and wouldn't be eligible.

Houserules like these have potential for abuse, so there would have to be penalties. Concentration checks, lowered DCs, possible spell malfunction with the risk of targetting the familiar instead of opponents...

I know it won't work under the RAW. I'm asking for tips on how to implement it in a fair and balanced way.

 

[Jhulae]

Well, if you have a flying familiar, just cast Delayed Blast Fireball and give the familiar the 'marble' to drop on the enemies.

 

[Krelios]

Familiars can cast any spell with a range of touch. Not any touch spell. The Rules of the Game article on Familiars was particularly bad (*cough*alterself*cough*).

 

[irdeggman]

Familiars can cast any spell with a range of touch. Not any touch spell. The Rules of the Game article on Familiars was particularly bad (*cough*alterself*cough*).

But not when talking about touch spells. It specifically says what you are.


From Rules of the Game:
·

A familiar can deliver touch spells for its master if the master is 3rd level or higher.
When casting a spell with touch range, the master can designate his familiar as the "toucher." The master and the familiar must be touching at the time of casting, and this requires the familiar and master to share the same space or be in adjacent spaces.
Once designated, the familiar can deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As normal, if the master casts another spell, the touch spell dissipates. If the familiar touches anything, the spell also dissipates.

Delivering a touch spell is a supernatural ability. The familiar uses an action to touch the spell recipient, usually the attack action, but no action is required to trigger the ability to deliver the spell.

Some touch spells have noticeable effects after they have been cast, and those effects are transferred to the familiar. For example, the chill touch spell makes the caster's hand glow blue. If the caster uses his familiar to deliver chill touch, the familiar glows blue.
The spell to be delivered does not have to be an arcane spell; the familiar can deliver any touch spell the master casts.

The familiar can make a melee touch attack to deliver the spell, or the familiar can use a natural weapon to make a melee attack that delivers the spell. In the latter case, the attack must defeat the defender's normal Armor Class, but a hit deals the attack's normal damage plus the spell effect. If the familiar misses with the natural weapon, it is still holding the spell. If the familiar is allowed more than one attack, the first attack in the series that hits delivers the spell.

It's worth noting that all the foregoing applies to spells with range touch (see Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions). Sometimes, a spell allows the caster to make a ranged touch attack to deliver the spell. Such a spell does not have touch range.

From the SRD:

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

 

[Hairfoot]

It's worth noting that all the foregoing applies to spells with range touch (see Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions). Sometimes, a spell allows the caster to make a ranged touch attack to deliver the spell. Such a spell does not have touch range.

Got it.

I wish the author had written "spells with a range of "touch"" instead of "spells with range touch". The quasi-double-negative made me think it meant ranged touch spells. Apparently not.

 

[BalazarIago]

The only thing that I can think of would be to attack an area that you can see, and hope to catch the enemy in the fall out.

For example: Create an anvil in the area above the enemy. You can see the spot where you create the anvil, and when it falls, hope it catches a few bad guys.

Expand this example to things like Ice Storm, Meteor Storm or other such spells. In this way, the spell will pass through the targeted area ( a point in the air ) and strike the ground beneath.

Just a thought.