Famine in the world

[Greenfield]

Loonook, let's roll the numbers again.

As you observed, one casting is about 128 acres. The typical family farm would be 40 acres, so one casting covers three farms.

Spell costs 150 to get cast, so 50 gp per farm. That's a gold piece a week, more or less, per farm.

That's about a ditch-digger's wage.

Increasing the yield, and potentially the profits, by a third for the cost of an unskilled hired hand isn't that far out of line.

More importantly, the fact that said farm can now devote a larger portion of the land to a cash crop, while still feeding the family, throws the deal more on the positive side.

It isn't going to be for everyone, of course, but it's going to be a factor in food production, over all.

Spells like Weather Control would, of course, be out of the question for the most part, unless needed to save a crop from drought, and since the radius on that one is in miles, the cost would likely be born by the community in general.

As a note: Draft animals don't eat grain normally. "Corn Fed" beef is a modern perversion, and is actually bad for the cattle. We do it to fatten them up quickly. They normally graze, eating grass.

 

[Loonook]

Loonook, let's roll the numbers again.

As you observed, one casting is about 128 acres. The typical family farm would be 40 acres, so one casting covers three farms.

Spell costs 150 to get cast, so 50 gp per farm. That's a gold piece a week, more or less, per farm.

That's about a ditch-digger's wage.

Increasing the yield, and potentially the profits, by a third for the cost of an unskilled hired hand isn't that far out of line.

More importantly, the fact that said farm can now devote a larger portion of the land to a cash crop, while still feeding the family, throws the deal more on the positive side.

It isn't going to be for everyone, of course, but it's going to be a factor in food production, over all.

Spells like Weather Control would, of course, be out of the question for the most part, unless needed to save a crop from drought, and since the radius on that one is in miles, the cost would likely be born by the community in general.

As a note: Draft animals don't eat grain normally. "Corn Fed" beef is a modern perversion, and is actually bad for the cattle. We do it to fatten them up quickly. They normally graze, eating grass.

Your assumption on land is incorrect:

In England, the idea farm size for a family was a "yardland" (24-30 acres) in size. Only about a quarter of the English farm families had this much land (or a bit more) before the Bubonic Plague , most had ten or fewer. Those farmers possessing a yardland were able to work their land efficiently enough to feed themselves and prodice a surplus for sale.

Let us split the difference and call it 20 acres. They go on to discuss the use of a supplemental vegetable garden at an acre to grow non-staple crops, land needed for the house, pigs, horses, chickens, and cattle/sheep for milk, leather, wool (with sheep) and others. Then you are also going to need homespun materials such as hemp or flax. Just for the sake of it give the farmers enough pigs to keep them in meat, and smoke hams during the fattening, and sheep or cow to turn to tallow and suet as needed along with meat, milk, leather, and wool.

Figuring based on basic info online (google "how many acres per [blank]") and you'll find that cows need around 5 acres minimum per head, pigs around an acre per 10 (paddocking needs to be performed for both to prevent overgrazing), and sheep I would place somewhere between. For your overall animal needs we would put it at an extremely low 5 acres... Cows will overgraze your pastures, but of course you can always send your sheep to herd and summer, and pigs and cows may cycle pasture in paddocks of others who need them for their fallow field maintenance. Of course you're going to have to milk your cows at least 1/day in the morning to maintain milk production, and your piggies are going to be doing some damage around that fallow field... But each will need at least a bit of land for their own use. Your horses will also need graze, which would be around a minimum of 2-3 acres per horse. You are still allowing everyone to free-graze right?

Most medieval farms that gain better yields practiced three-crop growth cycles, leaving a third to fallow, third to grow crop A, third to grow crop B. This basic form of crop rotation cuts your production overall of course, but allows for the two crops grown to yield more over that period.

On a 20 acre farm we sacrifice around a half acre for our little home, outbuildings, smokehouse, courtyard/henhouse for your chickens, stabling for the horses, a poke for your pigs, and stalls for your cows and wintering sheep. Some of this space can be reduced by allowing the animals to live below your own home with a second-story setup.

2 acres of garden for all of your needs brings us to 17.5 acres/overall. We will include our necessities as listed above for wintering of horses, sheep, cows, and pigs (2/acre for our larger animals, 8/acre for smaller) and figure 6 sheep, 2 horses, 2 cows, and 6 pigs to let us sit at 3.5 acres. 14 acres left. Then our requirements for the family altogether... We'll figure a quarter of the overall for the animals as included in the family land, and the 2 acres for the supplemental garden. With our 4 kids and 2 adults we have 6.7 acres needed to maintain the family foodwise. Just for sake of not crushing everything we will make this also include all plant-based necessities like hemp for clothing. 7.3 acres overall 'available' for use.

Now this is just figuring that there is no fallow space at all, and no cycling. If we have a 'fallow field' of 1/3 of the plot (where we can place our animals) we bring ourselves to 4.6 available acres for the farm. This is again figuring absolutely perfect conditions and paying for shepherding and animal handling services, and crop tending assistance when you need to do the whole crop delivery/processing. You would also be paying for the use of the local herd for, ahem, fertilization of your fallow field.

Your acreage will produce around 20 bushels/acre. For fallow fields we will place the yield higher, and of course there will be a large variable due to seasonal issues, crop damage caused by hail, etc. Now the average rate per bushel of wheat in the medieval period (look at that Agriculture post above) would be about 40 ducats. A pound of ducats by weight figures them to count as 2.8ish ducats/GP, so we will count them as a simple Electrum piece (5 sp). That should balance out the rest of our completely WAGing on this thread . 736 GP! Amazing!

Now how are we paying to get this all to harvest, processed, etc?

Hire 10 farmhands, a foreman, and carts to take the materials to and fro. You will need at least 3-5 days to process the harvest from scything, shearing, threshing, chaffing, and potting to your barrels into your cart. With a cart's half-ton capacity per the 3.0 PHB (cannot remember the amount in 3.x but this seems to crop up for 3.0) you will need 6 (5.52) carts, each with a single horse to draw them. Then you also need teamsters for at least 4 of these (your wife and yourself have Ride to control the animals at a good enough level to not bust an axle, right?). Oh, you also need to supply some sort of ride or pay the mill's price to offload, process, and reload your wagons (probably double to triple your cost if your farmhand crew won't come along).

Let us say it takes a day's ride to get to your granary. Your teamsters need to be hired in town, come to you with their carts, load, and leave so they're going to be doing a total of 3 days to the granary each. Rental of carts costs a minimum of 3 cp per day (we'll use a Carriage cost) per person that could be carried by the cart. 1/2 ton of people with gear we'll put as 4 people, so that's 1 gp 2 sp/mile.

24 miles with 6 carts is 172 gp 8 sp. Your crew costs you 13 sp/day for your farmhands (7 gp 8 sp) and your teamsters run you 1.2 gp/day for 3 days (3.6 gp). So 184.2 gp for the cost to get everything to the mill.

Now you're dealing with grain merchants. Sale of products will be for half the overall price. You'll be paying for processing of course (let us make it cheap, so 1 sp/200 lbs, 2.76 GP.) 181.04 gp. You want to process your own grain needs while you're there of course, so add another 4 carts (3.6 gp) and your processing fees (2.1 gp). Then carting your own stuff back to the house (2.4 GP) and unloading of your materials by your crew (.65 gp).

172.29 gp. Not a bad haul for a year's worth of work. Now figure the average life of a solid gelding workhorse is going to be 5-10 years, so put aside 30 gp/year as 'maintenance' for your horses... You're also going to need to pay maintenance on your livestock in case of drought or loss to predators (I'll put a pig at about the cost of a dog, same for cattle and sheep just to save us the hassle) so put aside 1/10 of their value/year at 30 gp, and chickens at an overall 5 gp/year for maintenance of the coop and possible fox or other destroying the house. Most homes will have dogs for their value as guardians and can sell the pups so we'll put them at roughly 'even'.

The farmer also purchases a hundred arrows for hunting at 5 GP, bowstrings, two knives for farm work, and new farming implements (a light hammer and a warhammer for 7 GP for hitting posts, 2 light picks for mattocks at 8 gp, a set of masterwork tools for farming including an almanac and small tools, 50 GP) a new flint and steel (1 GP), 10 new jugs for his beer (3 sp), fifty pieces of chalk for teaching the children and marking temporary notes around the barn on animals and planting schedule (5 sp), and a set of artisan tools for his woodworking and the miss's baking (10 GP).

The overall benefit of all of that hard work for the family? 24 GP 99 SP. The next year the farmer sends his sons off to prentice, strong farm boys with good minds, while the wife begins to cook and use her skills. She has mastered the arts of handicrafts, and begins to use her Profession check and Craft checks to make candles and other sundries (soaps, lotions, etc.).

Over the same period she makes 286 GP. The husband makes around the same from his Carpentry. This cash can be reinvested into the farm and laborers. Paying off the costs of your laborers with this cash may help you to get better rates at market by bypassing the local mill. You become more self-sufficient and can learn the skill of brewing to convert some of your grain into sweet liquid gold. When the sons come back home the family can spend their savings on investing in a Smithy (500 GP) to be placed on their own property if given the right by their liege lord...

You get the picture.

Really most farmers who GO anywhere are going to be doing so from Profession checks and the use of corvee labor. That's why Commoners have the checks available to gain. While there will be those who never learn a trade and wander about, those who learned any sort of trade will produce others that will learn the trade or profession.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Greenfield]

Taking the size of the farm down means that one casting can impact more farms, bringing the cost per farm family down.

Dropping from 40 acres to 20 effectively drops the cost from 50 gp annually to 25.

A lot of farm labor requirements are seasonal, so said farm would not have a huge assortment of farm hands. Many farm communities worked cooperatively in high demand seasons such as harvest time. The workers from all the farms would collect at one farm to help bring the crops in, then move to the next and do it again.

Also, in a medieval setting the collection of animals you describe probably won't be all on the same farm. One might have pigs, if the farm is particularly rich, since they're a single use animal. Some would be dairy farms, with little field cultivation other than a "farmer's garden", and they'd concentrate on milk (which spoils *fast*), butter and cheese. Beef would be a byproduct, and pretty much done only when the cow "went dry" and/or got too old to breed or produce milk.

Sheep farms could use a lot of acreage, as could dairy, but required lower labor. Sheep produce both wool and meat.

Most farms would have chickens, since eggs are an ongoing source of protein, and a very few chickens can produce a lot of eggs. Eggs also become a "cash crop" throughout the year for a lot of small farms. And chickens will eat just about anything.

But for those whose livestock would be limited to draft animals, they'd frequently graze in the "fallow" field, turning greenery into fertilizer to prepare the field for next season. And while a given animal may have a limited working life, the odd thing about horses and cattle is that, unlike tractors, they produce their own replacements. A farmer might have to pay a stud fee, but he doesn't have to buy a new animal very often.

Now when Plant Growth is cast in the Enrichment function, it effectively replaces the "laying fallow" process. If we presume your two crop rotation, it would line up with the 1/3rd increase mentioned in the spell.

It also increases the number of grazing animals you can pasture per acre.

Ultimately though, we're arguing about the viability of a notoriously non-viable economy, the one in the D&D world.

In our game world, rich and prosperous farmers can afford the Blessings. Family/subsistence farms generally can't. That is, the ones that produce food for sale can bring in more cash or barter by magically enhancing production. The ones that aren't geared to do anything more than maintain the residents don't generate an income, so adding a third to nothing still yields nothing.

Now in hard times like these, the cities that depend on local food production might decide to shell out for the spells, and the local Druids might work up a special deal in exchange for continuous employment. They're balancing the equation from the other side: We can pay high prices for not-enough food, or we can pay a Druid to increase the food supply and avoid the higher prices.

It will depend on how high food prices get.

 

[Loonook]

Quote

I think you're missing the whole crux of my argument.

The amount of money made on subsistence crops even at 40 acres is going to just allow these numbers to grow.

Your additional swath of land from the Plant Growth spell is going to add 86 GP to your overall yield. That brings us to 110 GP/farm of yield, not including the fact that all of the additional handling through the year of growth on that enrichment (staking plants, supports, etc). Overall when you include Growth casting, you earn 85 gp on top of everything.

Pigs were actually quite common as can be seen through midden heaps in Medieval Europe. To quote Adamson (p. 30): "In Antiquity and the Middle Ages wild and domestic pigs pigs were found across Europe and eaten by most people except for Jews and Muslims". The Pig has been a staple of peasant cuisine due to its ease of care (sties and roaming pigs), varied diet (they served as wonderful disposals ), and general yield in lbs/food intake. They could also be herded as swine, though these were usually a bit heartier stock and could cause issues of loose boars.

To be honest Pigs, then Beef, then Mutton, then Chicken were the stock meats of a Medieval peasant kitchen, while Chicken was common among the aristocracy. Feast days may see capons (castrated roosters) as the festive meat for the lower classes. Pigs were a winter meat, while you may also have suckling pigs if the birth yield was too high during season and you couldn't support the whole litter. Of course you also have a lot of purposes for pig's liver, and the intestines and offal were very common in tripe or pies. Lard was also very popular for its use in pies and other pastries when available, and served quite well in various simple breads.

Cows were valuable as multipurpose animals (though of course you would have to hire a stud bull for barter from a local breeder or have your own useless bull running about) and during birthing season you could choose to sell your bull off or clip him to grow a fatten a steer. Cows could produce suet, which was common for pastries alongside mutton suet and as a supplement for feed for other animals... You can also turn suet into tallow for candlemaking. Most of your hard cheeses are going to be made from cow's milk, though certain fresh cheese (also known as farmer's cheese) can be made from cow's milk.

Sheep and kids were delights, as they provide wool, milk for soft and fresh cheeses, and suet. Kid leather is supple and useful for its specific properties in the making of chamois leather. Sheep can be herded and usually are sent to pasture, but you're paying a shepherd in trade (which would be taken out of your household income) for his work. '

A shepherd who takes our sample farm's sheep into the hills may request a dagger and two homespun blankets, 50 candles, 15 yards of canvas (for making clothes), a common lantern and 24 pints of oil in 3 jugs, 3 empty jugs, 30 pieces of chalk, a set of clay utensils, 2 sewing needles, a waterskin filled with the lady's beer, and a stout quarterstaff. Roughly around 9 GP, or his total wages for 3 months of tending flocks during the season to take their sheep. He may gather the same amount from a couple of other farmsteads, and get it as a Trained herder. He can tend the flock pretty readily, and use a sling to protect the group from feral dogs.

Your farms are going to make VERY SMALL amounts of money. They need a lot of assistance, and a small farm family as I listed of lvl 1 Commoners could make a very decent living for themselves by the time the children reach the age of majority and decide rather they would stay on or marry out. What I AM trying to say is that the additional 25 GP spent for the extra yield may be better spent on purchasing Masterwork tools in the first few years, hiring additional hands, and working on craft industries after subsistence is reached.

If our Soapmaker, for instance, gains a Masterwork set of Soapmaking tools . Normally she has 4 ranks in the appropriate Craft, a +1 to Int, she makes 5 GP/week. With her Masterwork tools she make 5.66 gp/week, or 34.66 GP/year additional by taking 10 if she trades for the full price of the item with others.

Why do I think that that smaller amount is more worthwhile? First it doesn't rely on a Druid so it helps . Second, it allows for mobile wealth. That family with the amount of money it makes from its cottage industries could move up in the world by paying for the land they live on.

How did this happen?

Cost of a house? 5000GP.

Family of 4's earnings (2 Adult Commoners practicing Craft with Masterwork tools (+7) , 2 Sons practicing Craft as journeymen (+3), 2 young children Aiding the adults)/year taking 10?
676 + 884 + 104 = 1664 GP/year.

Paying off their house at a rate of 6% interest/year of 5000 GP for the standard home... 3.57 years. 1303 Days.

The house is theirs... But what about the land? Figuring that taxes are just handwaved (considered in the 1/2 cost of selling their grain) the family could probably just hire hands to do their labor for them. Purchasing all the required equipment and materials for porting their own goods to market and providing for their maintenance the farm could earn a couple hundred GP/year, and the family could afford to reinvest their principle wages in heads of cattle or sheep.

As your the journeymen rise to true Smiths (making as much as their parents) they may decide to settle up their own smithies and hire apprentices. The father opens a full carpenter's workshop, the mother begins as a chandler in the town. Levels are gained, more skills are gained, they invest further, purchasing their own buildings.

Even by my model, with appropriate reinvestment of your cash, a family could easily rise in a generation to a better social status. They pool their resources and they could even become merchants at a latter generation, becoming Experts instead of commoners.

I really don't see your issue with my numbers... They're pretty solid and backed by the economy of D&D showing that the economy does work...

Slainte,

-Loonook.

And the cycle continues.

 

[James the Newbie]

Reading over this whole thing, and having had a brief glance ad feudalism earlier on, what kind of government is in place for most of your cities? I am curious.

 

[Greenfield]

RE: The government.

Our game is set in an era based on Europe, circa 500 a.d., give or take a few decades. The fall of Rome.

Feudalism, as such, hasn't evolved yet, or is just starting to take shape.

Now since we have eight players, and hence 8 DMs (round-robin gaming style), the exact rules vary from one part of the world to another. Which kind of makes sense.

As for your numbers, I have to admit that I'm confused. Blame it on working the last month without a day off (and some of those were 14 hour days), or maybe I'm just being thick. When I read your posts, my eyes start to glaze over. (Not a condemnation of you or your posts, just me being brain-dead tired and overworked.)

It seems to me that you're supporting my argument that spell would be affordable and justifiable for at least some of the farmers. I suggested 40 acre farms, you said 10, maybe 20. That, as I noted, drops the per-farm share of the spell proportionally, in essence an argument *for* the affordability of the spell. Was that the direction you were trying to argue in?

Now I think you're overstating the commonality of meat in the diet of the medieval farmer. I also think you have an odd idea about the size of a farm family. Two children? Unless the wife died in childbirth the second time around, there's no reason for a farm family to be that small. I also think that you and I are using different meanings for the phrase "subsistence farming".

(To me, a "subsistence" farm raises enough to feed the people living on it, with little to spare. What excess there is is reserved for barter, for the things they can't make themselves. Any and all harvest surplus is stored way to get through the winter.)

By that definition, the subsistence farm pays little or no actual cash, it just supports itself and pretty much nothing more. Adding 33% to that cash surplus is like doubling the pay of your volunteer help. It's a meaningless gesture.

Now, is the D&D economy broken? Only when you start including the presence of magic, and adventurers. And since both of those things are part of the equation, the answer overall is "yes, the economy is broken."

Teleport, Shadow Walk, Wind Walk, Teleport Circle and all of the other fast-transport spells would facilitate trade on a scale unseen before the introduction of commercial air travel. Shrink Item, and items like Portable Holes and Bags of Holding increase the cargo capacity of a pedestrian beyond that of a freight wagon, or even a cargo ship. And with the afore-mentioned fast-transport spells reducing or eliminating transit delays and loss in shipment, the overland trade routes to exotic places would become meaningless, and profits would be limited only by the amount of competition.

Cargo ships to China suffered losses of over 30% due to damage or spoilage in transit, without even counting ships lost to storm or piracy. The trip between Italy and China took years overland, and could take over a year by sea. What happens what that trade cycle can turn over several times a day? With no spoilage, no transit loss, no damage at all?

And the same thing happens on the shorter routes as well, so Phoenician dyes are as available in Norway as English cheeses are.

How would the economy of such a world be in any way recognizable as "medieval"? And with no way to close a border or tax the trade, what would government look like?

And we haven't even begun to look at crafting magic like Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, or Fabricate.

Though we like to pretend that we can compare historical views of economic models to the game world, there's no way they're maintainable.

The "real" economy of the feudal period was based largely on what was essentially slave labor: The serf population. While the serfs couldn't be sold, per se, they "belonged" with the land they worked, and if the land changed hands, so did the people.

The middle class of merchants and craftspeople didn't exist. Oh, there were merchants and craftspeople, it's the social class that wasn't there. They were purely commoners with no influence or power. If a nobleman wanted something they had, he simply took it, and if they argued they could be flogged, imprisoned, tortured, maimed or killed on his orders.

Prior to the Magna Carta, (1215 a.d. ) the same thing could happen to any nobleman who displeased the King.

Russia was one of the last holdouts on this tradition, by the way, ending its serfdom system in the 1860s, at about the same time the US was fighting to end it's own slave system. And it was an economic shock to Russia at the time as well. The Czar was inspired to order it by the American Civil War, in fact.

So in the time we're emulating in our games, adventurers would be exceptional people by any standards, in that they would be considered either runaway serfs who go away with it, or were free-born, a rare class of people.

 

[Loonook]

So in the time we're emulating in our games, adventurers would be exceptional people by any standards, in that they would be considered either runaway serfs who go away with it, or were free-born, a rare class of people.

And your assumptions on the fact that magic can affect the world is also kind of silly.

Let's take the largest cities of the ancient world. Top 10.

How many mages live in London? How many in Baghdad? How about Rome?

The population doesn't matter!

At the maximum we have the following amount of spellcasters altogether:

Adepts/Bards/Clerics/Druids: 16 level 18, 32 level 9, 64 level 4, 128 level 2, 256 level 1.

Sorcerer/Wizards: 8 level 16, 16 level 8s, 32 level 4s, 64 level 2s, 128 level 1s.

Now if you decide you wish to have move that would be fine... But for the guidelines in the DMG we have no one above level 19 who can cast in the entire world. However somewhere in the world there are a bunch of level 28 commoners...

We have all of these spellcasters, but how do they affect the places they live?

None of our normal wizards can cast Teleportation Circle. So let us remove that and all the other 9th level Sorc/Wiz only spells off the table.

Your Teleport spells? You can bring horses with you... The top Sorcerer can bring 2 Large creatures and a Medium creature with them, so he can move those creatures and a maximum carried load. Without going with a bunch of ridiculous monsters to be used in this, we'll go with Heavy Horses loaded to their highest level (1200 lbs of materials) your own carriage (you big buff beast you) and your medium creature (lets give you your henchman with some gear). Altogether?

Let us give you a ton of material to carry. Probably your best bet on this is to use it as a mobile treasury, moving large amounts of gold or gems to another location. 800 GP for a caster to cast the spell is pretty rough when you're not carrying your weight in gold. Of course you could always make golden animated statues in this way (the best way to go, honestly) and then melt them down when you get to the location.

Now onto Shrink Item. Shrink Item shrinks one item... Nonmagical item. If you're translating the spell directly the item you're making would be a sack... That would burst when you have it filled with coins . The way to get around this is shrinking large bricks of gold or other material. A sorcerer could in theory Shrink 32 cubic feet of gold... That's going to be
38528 lbs of gold. Roughly 2 million GP to transfer between kingdoms with multiple castings could definitely make for some interesting hooks (though I'm guessing that that Sorcerer will be accompanied by another Sorcerer to prevent him from disappearing with the lot).

Shrink it down to an 8 lb gold bar, and you are definitely a banker's best friend.... But it isn't going to really 'rule the world' through commerce. I cannot really shrink most of the nice things that I would love to shrink (ships, castles, etc.) and I have to send the Sorcerer?

Not too strange to do such transfers between countries... And a way to deal with ransoms of armies or castles which have been captured to be sold back to their kingdoms.

Shadow Walk is kind of a dicey proposition... I remember in older versions you could run into some nasty things in the penumbrae areas... But you do get to move quickly. Of course it holds to being able to take more creatures and items with you, but everyone needs to be touching each other... Which I always thought was a weird premise.

Most of the spells you speak of seem to be great for transporting large amounts of cash or specific items with you... But they aren't really economy breaking if you analyze the items.

Will you have extremely powerful individuals who make up a small portion of the population? Yes. Are they going to 'break' the economy on a large scale? No... They operate within their own economic ecology. While we toil in the realms of gold pieces they consider platinum to be passe, and the higher gems to be worthwhile. They provide consultancy to those who have no idea what they do, but provide the best information. They send their underlings to battle if need be, but they are most happy when they're doing the big things (summoning demons, closing rifts in reality) rather than 'paying the bills' by running currency exchanges. You see these mages as . . .

I see them more as this...

*

* Note: All Mages cast Water Breathing when working in their office.

Adventurers are in the upper middle class for such a society, where almost EVERYONE else is scraping by and would consider their life amazing. They keep most of their resources in hard assets, and don't really have liquidity.

But really, High-level characters are the 1% .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Greenfield]

Many people play that when a container is reduced, its contents go with it. Far be it from me to argue a house rule with a strict interpretationalist though, so we'll let that one stand.

In any case, a Portable Hole and/or Bags of Holding increase the carrying capacity by a factor of infinity: How many Portable Holes can one man carry? And note that while you can't put the bag in the hole, nor the hole in the bag, there are no restrictions on placing bags in bags, or holes in holes.

An 11th level Wizard can cast Shadow Walk and lead a small caravan of pack animals 500 miles a day, which means a trip from Italy to China takes 12 days or so. Call it two weeks.

And that spell doesn't include any size adjustment on the target creature count. Ant or Antelope, Elf or Elephant, each one counts as one. So at 11th level, you and 11 draft animals, with as much as they can carry. And since the spell doesn't actually mention a weight limit per creature, it can be their maximum load. Some would argue that it could include as much as they can drag, in which case you're dealing with a wagon train.

Teleport, at 9th level (minimum caster level) takes you 900 miles a shot. Seven castings and you're in China, where you empty out your Portable Hole and begin trade.

In a few days or weeks, when you've sold your things and loaded up on relatively cheap exotic commodities, you pack up and return home. A few days in transit, but that's it.

Greater Teleport, at 13th level, puts you back in the "several trips a day" category.

And like I said, we haven't even begun to discuss spells like Wall of Stone or Fabricate.

How about the ability of Greater Creation to create literally tonnes of counterfeit gold?

We hold the vision of the D&D world as a medieval counterpart, but it's not possible for it to stay that way when there's magic in the world.

 

[Loonook]

Many people play that when a container is reduced, its contents go with it. Far be it from me to argue a house rule with a strict interpretationalist though, so we'll let that one stand.

In any case, a Portable Hole and/or Bags of Holding increase the carrying capacity by a factor of infinity: How many Portable Holes can one man carry? And note that while you can't put the bag in the hole, nor the hole in the bag, there are no restrictions on placing bags in bags, or holes in holes.

An 11th level Wizard can cast Shadow Walk and lead a small caravan of pack animals 500 miles a day, which means a trip from Italy to China takes 12 days or so. Call it two weeks.

And that spell doesn't include any size adjustment on the target creature count. Ant or Antelope, Elf or Elephant, each one counts as one. So at 11th level, you and 11 draft animals, with as much as they can carry. And since the spell doesn't actually mention a weight limit per creature, it can be their maximum load. Some would argue that it could include as much as they can drag, in which case you're dealing with a wagon train.

Teleport, at 9th level (minimum caster level) takes you 900 miles a shot. Seven castings and you're in China, where you empty out your Portable Hole and begin trade.

In a few days or weeks, when you've sold your things and loaded up on relatively cheap exotic commodities, you pack up and return home. A few days in transit, but that's it.

Greater Teleport, at 13th level, puts you back in the "several trips a day" category.

And like I said, we haven't even begun to discuss spells like Wall of Stone or Fabricate.

How about the ability of Greater Creation to create literally tonnes of counterfeit gold?

We hold the vision of the D&D world as a medieval counterpart, but it's not possible for it to stay that way when there's magic in the world.

On bags of holding within bags of holding: That's great... The problem is that your above amount of grain will fill a Class III bag of holding. Most trade goods? Again, negligible carriage within that same bag of holding (most things will max out weight far before profitability). And that bag is 7400 GP, so stack to your heart's content.. You've creating a multimillion dollar storage space that can be destroyed by a well-placed fireball or arrow (doesn't need to be destroyed, just pierced to reduce all contents to naught).

Shadow Walk, as listed, transports creatures. It says nothing of carts, just that it transports X amount of touched creatures. Yes, you can even take a Grand Wyrm along... You can move across the planes with it. Again, Plane of Shadow is iffy (or at least used to be). I believe there was actually a spell from an older edition called Shadow Caravan that allowed for carts... May have had some other fancy name but it was sort of the EPIC version of the same spell .

Fabricate: We get to bypass Craft times for 450 GP? Huzzah! Even a small sailing boat is going to probably need multiple castings if your DM will allow you to use it... This is actually covered in Stronghold Builder's Guide for its indepth powers RE: building keeps and in another sourcebook for large objects. Still does require that Mage to be trained in the appropriate Craft and he's going to have to work for that unless your DM has Magewright spells available to him...

Wall of Stone: You have made stone! Huzzah! Again... For the amount paid for the spell it's not a HUGE assistance, and again is covered for allowing you to be helped for building walls and structures in SHBG.

On True Creation:

XP Cost: The item’s gold piece value in XP, or a minimum of 1 XP, whichever is more.

.

Yes, make tons of gold. Just burn all your XP while you're doing it. Again, the Midas effect in swing.

Teleport Teleport Teleport. You know exactly where you are going for each of your jumps yes? You've spent the money to scry or taken trips with various caravans to make yourself know the area extremely well, right? Don't want you to have a high chance of completely botching and having issues. Also, remember that your teleport leaves a trail that may betraced. Merchants get waylaid on the road all the time... You are obviously carrying extremely valuable goods if you're burning over 4000 GP to teleport hop, and you have a reputation. Rival merchant houses, mages, etc. may decide to just drop in on you... Personally I would think the score of a weighted-down wizard who has devoted his top tier spells to travel is a great target for rogues who may employ another for a cut of the loot .

As you claimed higher up in the thread it is an error to believe that people do not know and use magic on a daily basis in a high magic campaign. As long as they can get a caster to cover them people will waylay your magical caravans (and may even choose them to the benefit of mundanes if they are aware). You are placing large valuable additions to your cargo, usually much more expensive than the cargo, easy to rush off with, and generally easy to snag... Yes please!

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Dandu]

Have traps of Create Food and Water been mentioned in this thread yet?