Spoilers Fantastic Four (Spoilers)

[Stalker0]

True. But it's not like the F4 just said "Nope. Guess you're all going to die". They said "Nope, we're going to find another solution". Which they obviously did.

These people are your heroes. So when they are like "we are going out there and we are going to beat Galactus"....yep I believe them. And then they come back with "we don't know how to save us....well actually we do, with the sacrifice of 1 life we can save our entire race"

and when they refuse to do it, you of course believe they have a brilliant plan, a foolproof scheme. These are your hereos, and you are ready to believe. And they have nothing...they have to think about it.

But they are your heroes and you believe. And they come up with a plan, a crazy over the top plan that has so much risk no sane person would ever sign off on it except for "we have to". If Reed had been even slightly wrong in his calculations, earth is gone. So you invest trillions of dollars that was going to fight cancer or world hunger or whatever problems they got, that almost certainly killed several people (there is no scenario where they build something of that scale that quickly without some people dying for it), and you go for this hail mary because its the freakin Fantastic Four, and you believe.

And then the plan goes to crap, the enemy destroys it before it even begins. Ok we tried our best, but its time to throw in the towel and attempt a parlay with Galactus. Does the FF4 do that?.... oh no, another crazy scheme with huge risk and whose failure means the destruction of the planet.

The FF4 are heroes yes...but they are not gods, and they have no right, not for one child....not for anyone. They are heroes no longer.

 

[Ryujin]

I think its because people are parents and go so far to protect their kids that they 100% would not get it.

To "possibly" save your kid, your going to kill my kid, and my friend's kid, and my neightbor's kid....and the entire human race!!!


The problem with morality debates is they tend to falter in the face of that level of scale. When your save yours and kill hundreds of theirs you can justify it.....thousands...maybe. Millions.....phew boy but ok. But when its literally "yeah our planet is going to be destroyed".....there is no moral decision there. Any decision where that is on the table is automatically wrong, and anyone that opens that as a possibilty must be stopped at any cost.

At that scale you would tend to think that someone with a high level of responsibility and morality would at least hesitate for a second, rather than jumping straight to "YOU CAN'T HAVE MY KID!"

 

[trappedslider]

I was surprised that Sue didn't pull the "Could you do it?" uno reverse card

 

[Reef]

These people are your heroes. So when they are like "we are going out there and we are going to beat Galactus"....yep I believe them. And then they come back with "we don't know how to save us....well actually we do, with the sacrifice of 1 life we can save our entire race"

and when they refuse to do it, you of course believe they have a brilliant plan, a foolproof scheme. These are your hereos, and you are ready to believe. And they have nothing...they have to think about it.

But they are your heroes and you believe. And they come up with a plan, a crazy over the top plan that has so much risk no sane person would ever sign off on it except for "we have to". If Reed had been even slightly wrong in his calculations, earth is gone. So you invest trillions of dollars that was going to fight cancer or world hunger or whatever problems they got, that almost certainly killed several people (there is no scenario where they build something of that scale that quickly without some people dying for it), and you go for this hail mary because its the freakin Fantastic Four, and you believe.

And then the plan goes to crap, the enemy destroys it before it even begins. Ok we tried our best, but its time to throw in the towel and attempt a parlay with Galactus. Does the FF4 do that?.... oh no, another crazy scheme with huge risk and whose failure means the destruction of the planet.

The FF4 are heroes yes...but they are not gods, and they have no right, not for one child....not for anyone. They are heroes no longer.

Earth 828 is not our Earth. And the Fantastic Four weren't just the Avengers in a blue uniform. From what the movie told us, they had practically united the globe. There are flying cars, so there's no reason to think Reed is hoarding his tech. They may already have cured cancer, who knows?

Can you imagine our world uniting to do anything, let alone build a world-wide network of portals in just a few months? The Fantastic Four, and Earth 828, are obviously in a much different paradigm than we're used to. It's implied that they've saved the world over and over again before, so much that everyone couldn't conceive that they wouldn't defeat Galactus at the first swing.

And they flat out said "We will not sacrifice this world for our child". Your saying they aren't heroes, as if they had already let the world get destroyed. That the simple fact they didn't immediately sacrifice their child, without coming up with other plans somehow makes them monsters. They came up with alternate plans, that worked. And I believe that in the end, if all their gambits had failed, then yes, the FF would have sacrificed themselves and their child to save the planet. They just weren't going to go "Aw man, we've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas".

 

[Stalker0]

And they flat out said "We will not sacrifice this world for our child". Your saying they aren't heroes, as if they had already let the world get destroyed. That the simple fact they didn't immediately sacrifice their child, without coming up with other plans somehow makes them monsters. They came up with alternate plans, that worked.

I already noted that the world could tolerate their big plan, because they were such world heroes. but then that mass world uniting plan failed. So its not about the immediate sacrifice, its about it was never even a consideration after that, even when there was a really really good chance the early was going to get destroyed at that point.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think the moral argument of one kid versus all mankind misses the point of superhero comics, at least from the time Fantastic Four was portraying. The point of the superhero is to do the impossible thing and not have to make the mere human decision. It’s what separates this story from a sci-fi drama. It’s why Zack Snyder got the character of Superman so damn wrong. The Fantastic Four can make that stand because they will find a way to save not only their kid but everyone else too. Superman doesn’t kill people because he will find a way to overcome the obstacle without resorting to what may be the easy way out for anyone else. That’s why he’s Superman. And that’s why they’re the Fantastic Four.

 

[Mannahnin]

Even a sci-fi drama might make that argument.

Chapter 12, Starship Troopers:

Mr. Rico!"

Now I was the victim. "Yes, sir."

"Are a thousand unreleased prisoners sufficient reason to start or resume a war? Bear in mind that millions of innocent people may die, almost certainly will die, if war is started or resumed."

I didn’t hesitate. "Yes, sir! More than enough reason."

" ‘More than enough.’ Very well, is one prisoner, unreleased by the enemy, enough reason to start or resume a war?"

I hesitated. I knew the M. I. answer — but I didn’t think that was the one he wanted. He said sharply,"Come, come, Mister! We have an upper limit of one thousand; I invited you to consider a lower limit of one. But you can’t pay a promissory note which reads ‘somewhere between one and one thousand pounds’ — and starting a war is much more serious than paying a trifle of money. Wouldn’t it be criminal to endanger a country — two countries in fact — to save one man? Especially as he may not deserve it? Or may die in the meantime? Thousands of people get killed every day in accidents... so why hesitate over one man? Answer! Answer yes, or answer no — you’re holding up the class."

He got my goat. I gave him the cap trooper’s answer. "Yes, sir!" "

‘Yes’ what?"

"It doesn’t matter whether it’s a thousand — or just one, sir. You fight."

"Aha! The number of prisoners is irrelevant. Good. Now prove your answer."

I was stuck. I knew it was the right answer. But I didn’t know why. He kept hounding me. "Speak up,Mr. Rico. This is an exact science. You have made a mathematical statement; you must give proof. Someone may claim that you have asserted, by analogy, that one potato is worth the same price, no more, no less, as one thousand potatoes. No?"

"No, sir!"

"Why not? Prove it."

"Men are not potatoes."

"Good, good, Mr. Rico! I think we have strained your tired brain enough for one day. Bring to class tomorrow a written proof, in symbolic logic, of your answer to my original question. I’ll give you a hint. See reference seven in today’s chapter. Mr. Salomon! How did the present political organization evolve out of the Disorders? And what is its moral justification?"

Of course Heinlein cheats by claiming in-fiction that there's mathematically-demonstrable proof that this position is right, without showing any such work. In the real world people have legitimately differing opinions.

 

[TiQuinn]

Even a sci-fi drama might make that argument.


Of course Heinlein cheats by claiming in-fiction that there's mathematically-demonstrable proof that this position is right, without showing any such work. In the real world people have legitimately differing opinions.

I read that whole part in Michael Ironside’s voice.

 

[Clint_L]

I think the moral argument of one kid versus all mankind misses the point of superhero comics, at least from the time Fantastic Four was portraying. The point of the superhero is to do the impossible thing and not have to make the mere human decision. It’s what separates this story from a sci-fi drama. It’s why Zack Snyder got the character of Superman so damn wrong. The Fantastic Four can make that stand because they will find a way to save not only their kid but everyone else too. Superman doesn’t kill people because he will find a way to overcome the obstacle without resorting to what may be the easy way out for anyone else. That’s why he’s Superman. And that’s why they’re the Fantastic Four.

Agreed - superheroes are typically extreme deontologists, concerned with the moral principle, not loosey-goosey consequentialists who focus on the greater good. Refusing to sacrifice any baby, not just their own, is extremely on brand for the FF.