Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Morgenstern]

First off, I wanted to say after putting forward a request for a mogol-type fation, I think that mogol centuars having conquered another smaller culture and the reulting fusion taking the field is just brillinat. I love this faction already .

Jinn seemed like a minimally functional name, but wit a linguistic tie to the tamarchs, and a tip of the hat to ol' Tamujin, i'd like to rename them Ta'jinn. let 'jinn' be their word for people, and Ta'jinn mean 'The People' (almost universally, early tribal cultures refered to themselves as The People, with other tribes just being people). If the more xenophobic option described below is used, then any of the tribes ont he plains earns the title Jinn (which may be part of the Cressian's confusion about their name - they meet Jinn before Ta'Jinn), but the non-plains folk may not initially deserve recognition as people at all...

So am I correct in the understanding that out on these large plains we we looking at several wildly different tribes (not all of them human) and that their shared experience is that they all live there, and they all have some members who are godblooded (sorcerers)? The Centaurs were reasonably militant and conquered the griffin riders and absorbed them, and the resulting larger, more diverse tribe is now looking for new lands to add to their domain? A culture that has prospered by absorbtion may be looking to do so again. They may pick a fight with the Stempian or the Crssians because they want to absorb their technologies. Stempian metalworking and Cressian horticulture are valuable prizes, possibly as much or moreso than the land... Or it may be that the plains tribes are xenophobic towards outsiders, and that any people not so blessed as to have godblooded members are clarly inferior and fit only to be enslaved. I'd be cool with that too .

As to the functional size of this khanate, I'd say it does have to come down a bit. One tamarch on patrol, one assigned to the heartlands/reserves, and one for offense is probably plenty. A fourth might be reasonable if, and only if, it's a two-front war against the Stempians and the Cressians at the same time.

I'm also thinking 4th level spells might be a good cap at the outset of hostilites, with limited 5th being developed during, and a range of 5th level spells being known at the conclusion. Particularly as the level required to cast the 5th level spells may be rarely achieved by any of these groups. Would it be reasonable to simply establish a cap on single-class levels? So that pretty much no class has members over 9th level at the outset (maybe a few multiclassed champions with total levels higher than that) but by the end, up to 12th level in a single class is possible? Might provide some comparison for what different groups are capable of.

 

[Morgenstern]

Oh yeah, I also wanted to express aproval for the use of a slightly less potent centaur. Personally, I have no idea why they have +8 Strength. The human torsoes never struck me as being that much more powerful than a human's (+4 would be streching my credulity considerably) and the important part, greater load bearing capacity and lifting, is already doubled over a human's by the change in size category. The Greek models vary from vicious savages (at least when drunk, like that's all that different than humans) to enlightened beings who have tutored heroes.

A potent, resonably enlightened centaur rulership with a natural distrust of anyone who doesn't share in the basic lifestyles imposed by nomadic existence could make for a very interesting ruling body. Meld in the attitudes of the griffin riding tribe (not sure I'm all that keen on demon worshiping cultists) who were starting to get more settled, and shake-not-stir .

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

The demon worshipping cultists are long gone. All that's left are their undead raising, object animating, and thing conjuring assitants. I agree that the +8 is no good for the sort of Centaurs I would be talking about here. I was thinking +2 for most. Maybe the royal line will get the huge bonuses.

I wanna see what the other opponents look like. Given our current geography are their any naval powers aside from the Cressians and the Viking mages? I really wanted to see some Stempan naval cities out there, but I can deal.

 

[Tonguez]

While I agree that the Jinns won't be that great at siege warfare, each Tamarch can probably only pull off one good siege at a time, but the Mongols were actually very adept at siege warfare having learned a great deal from their conquests. Recall that it was the Mongols who took down the unassailable fortresses of the old man of the mountains. Siege units were elite units, however, and they were very rarely present in the forces that the Mongols sent to the west which is where their reputation for poor sieges comes from. The Persians and Medes were also very adept at sieges

Not entirely accurate as the 'Mongol' peoples were never very good at seige warfare or city administration. What they were good at was incorporating the peoples they had conquered earlier and using them and their skills. As such the elite seige specialist used by the Mongol army were ususally Chinese 'mecenaries'.

Now back to the Jinn - after reviewing the writeups the Jinnwhilst awesome in concept (and eminently yoinkable) are probably too 'overpowered' for the purposes of our scenario

From what I gleaned via a quick read:

Stempa – Mountain based city-states
Technology: Clerics, Iron, Mining, Ogres
Military: Infantry

Jinn- Steepe Nomads
Technology: Centaurs, Griffons, Chariots, Seige Engines, Archery, Undead, Armour
Military: Cavalry archers, Light Cavalry, Aerial Cavalry, Heavy Infantry

Ausel – Island based raiders
Technology: Ships, Scorcerers, Monsters,
Military: Infantry, Naval raiders

the Jinn have about 8 Technologies and the best military in the known world - compared to everyone else they are practically unstopable

 

[GladiusNP]

I'm not so sure we do need to take centaurs down a notch. If there's only two hundred in a Tamarch (and regardless of the size of the Ta'Jinn Empire, it seems to be that a Tamarch is what the Cressians would face), they are going to have serious problems vs. the Lycanthropic warriors, of which there are at least that many, though one thousand seems a better number.

Assuming a bare minimum of 1st-level commoner (direct from the MM) a werewolf can keep pace with a centaur, and though not as dangerous in combat, they still have their trump-card, damage resistance. Also, these are the weakest, least effective beastmen - many are probably accomplished warriors.

For the Stempa, I think that Ogres would be very cool. Fits in with the sort of brute force, run to armies together approach of ritualized religious conflicts. (I read somewhere that ancient Greeks were considered somewhat suicidal by the Persians after seeing how two greek armies fought each other, pretty much a charge into melee wearing heavy armor). The Stempa probably will be slightly disadvantaged in the conflict, except for the fact they have iron, which will make short work of bronze shields.

In regard to the number of city-states, I'd pick seven as a figure that we can easily use, but keeps variety up. I'd suggest two factions, divided over one of the religious conflicts that got out of hand. One has more numbers, and the other side pulls in the Cressians to help. That's when the Ta'Jinn show up.

City-states (Summary at bottom)-
Thelia - Worshippers of Arcsos, a god of retribution, warfare and law. The Thelians are the leaders of the smaller of the factions, and the largest city-state. They have managed to hold back for some time the onslaught of the other Stempa due to their superior military leaders and decent resources - they have a large amount of territory, and a large, highly trained army. The city of Thelia is located on a fertile strip of land, near to Cressia. They are allies with.....

Sirenos - To the south of the Cressian river and Altheea lies a large natural bay. Sirenos, and it's sister city Sirrednos, are on opposite sides of this harbour. Both worship the goddess Sirine, patron of the tides, moon, and sailors. Sirenos has only a small army, but has considerable naval strength, as does....

Sirrednos - The sister city of Sirenos, Sirrednos is lead by priestesses of Sirine. Though it is smaller than Sirenos, Sirrednos is famous for the oracle who resides in a temple within the city. Along with Sirenos, they are allied to Thelia.

Altheea - Worshippers of Beros, a god of trade, law, and coin. Altheea is located on the river which runs into Cresia. They are river traders, and have the closest ties to the Cressians. Their army is well equipped, but small and not particularly well led. They were dragged into the conflict by close ties with the Thelians. They eventually pull in the Cressians to fight the other faction, lead by the soldiers of...

Tarthus - Followers of Iradne, a goddess of freedom, battle and virtue. Tarthus is located on the borders of the Jinn grasslands. The third-largest city-state, Tarthus' army defeated the Thelians. Retaliation on a massive scale lead to the current conflict. Tarthus has many religious temples, and is the most tolerant of the Stempa to new ideas and freedom of worship. Their army is small, but very well-trained and led by excellent generals. They are aided by....

Lesthen- Devoted to Mastos, a god of craft, iron, and the forge. Located to the south of Tarthus, and also on the Jinn border, Lesthen is the second largest city-state. They have the best equipment, though their army is only mid-sized. To their immediate east lies....

Belephthos - The faithful of Crossus, god of strength, athleticism, and freedom. Located in the center of Stempa, they are the first to have developed ties with the Ogres. They have a small city - they are in the most rugged terrain in Stempa. They fight well, but are poorly supplied, and very small. They are known for the quality of their recruits rather than elite generals. They fight with Tarthus, as does the city of....

Colothus - Found to the south of Lesthen, on a narrow peninsula, Colosthus follow Piscenes, god of the ocean and storms. Colosthus has a strong navy, and a good sized army. They are probably the best at Amphibous assault of the Stempa, and live in an excellent location, with shellfish found in the shallows to the west of the city, and many fish swimming in the deeps to the east. They follow Tarthus, along with....

Selonia - Lead by priests of Cumidne, goddess of secrets, lore, and the sky. Good, arable location, but only mid-sized. Army is not inconsiderable, but only mid-sized. They sided with Tarthus, like....

Epicus - Worshippers of Epardne, goddess of healing, surgeons, and herbs. Naturally occuring hot-springs lead to many seeking healing to come to this city. They have a small navy, and not much of an army. They are sworn to Tarthus, as are the soldiers of....

Lernea - The Lerneans are worshippers of Ephros, god of the harvest, seasons, and change. Another of the middle sized cities. Army is not particularly well-trained, but reasonable equipment and size makes up for that.

Here is a summation, largest down to smallest. The letters indicates who follows which city-state, Thelia (TH) or Tarthus (TA)

Thelia (TH)
Lesthen (TA)
Tarthus (TA)
Colosthus (TA)
Sirenos (TH)
Altheea (TH)
Lernea (TA)
Sirrednos (TH)
Selonia (TA)
Epicus (TA)
Belephthos (TA)

Maybe we could set up a small scenario, and see how what we've got goes, picking out battles to see how they run. My suggestion would be Altheea pulls in Cressia to help Thelia. They help hold the Tarthusian forces back. The Ta' Jinn Tamarch, unbeknownst to the Cressians, then attack Lesthen. The Tarthusians, fighting on two fronts, are pushed back by the Thelians and Cressian. The Cressians then meet a small advance force of the Ta'Jinn. Confluct ensues. The Auselen generally ally according to whatever the individual ship-captain decides.

 

[s/LaSH]

Some points as I see them:

* The Ta'jinn (good name, btw) are a fairly big empire, slightly larger than Cresia itself in terms of area, and more militaristic. The area of concern extends only to the other side of the fertile ground along the Heaven River, but I suppose they might have extra territory out the other side, probably more steppes. More Tamarchs could be tied up there, dealing with rebellious nomads or raiders from outside their borders.

Thus, the total number of soldiers they can field against new conquests is limited slightly (although in a war of anihilation they are probably capable of killing anything that stands in their way).

*Siege warfare might not be their forte, but with big numbers and assorted spec-ops groups like that they're probably capable of taking fortified cities. They know it would hurt them, however, and their spies like the look of Cresia a lot more - its open cities are ripe for the plucking, or so they assume.

* Weakened centaurs are fine. Really, their mobility gives them an unfair advantage on the battlefield anyway, something not really reflected in challenge ratings, and that assesses them as quite tough anyway. Basically, a centaur in this scenario should be comparable to a human, but with the added mobility of its equine relatives. Tougher centaurs are, of course, leveled, and I'm sure stronger specimens can be found for elite formations just like strong humans sometimes occur.

The Greek models vary from vicious savages (at least when drunk, like that's all that different than humans) to enlightened beings who have tutored heroes.

So basically running the full gamut of humanity, then. Them Greeks were very fond of assigning human qualities to inhuman entities... look at Zeus, a sterling example of manhood.

*Stempan naval cities are a certainty. They control 400 miles of terrain north of Cresia, so they logically have some coast. Revising my earlier figures, if we assume that Stempa is roughly divided into sixteen hundred-mile territorial squares, there are probably 4 coastal cities and another 2 at the head of the Cresian River. (There are a further six hill cities with sheep and cavalry, and four mountain cities with very strong warrior traditions; the hill cities are closest to Cresia.)

Assuming that there are maybe 40,000 standing military amongst the Stempans (including elites and casters), each city can field 2500 soldiers. I'd assume that the galleys of the four coastal cities would be manned with 20 soldiers apiece, plus slaves to row them; if they reserve 500 soldiers to guard the city, they can therefore field maybe one hundred ships each, albeit with superior hull technology (sharpened by constant internecine conflict). Stempan war vessels total 400, compared to 2000 (1000 sea-capable) for Cresia and 100 heavily armed vessels for Ausel (I made a mathematical error in my previous discussion; 100 hulls is about right for the magocracy).

However, Stempan vessels carry ramming prows, catapults and ballistae, and probably some kind of napalm (much as the good old Greeks did). They can definitely hold their own, although if only one city gets involved it's doomed by overwhelming numbers.

* Finally, we're still going for Ta'jinn chariots, right? A centaur chariot could be incredibly effective on the battlefield, as a concentration of deadly force previously unconcieved. Plus it's not as vulnerable to mystic assault from Cresian animal priestesses.


Incidentally, I'm ready to start the actual scenario when you guys are...

 

[s/LaSH]

When it rains, it pours... two posts come up while I'm typing.

Tonguez: I'm not certain the Ta'jinn are overpowered. I can't see them using heavy armour, especially not as skirmisher cavalry; the Stempans have the advantage in that field, I think. And don't forget, any conflict in Cresia is going to kill their principal advantage: overwhelming mobility. The Jongans discovered the hard way that the Cresians were very good at making you walk into a place you really didn't want to be, like a flailing rose bush. While Cresia isn't ready for war, they can quickly grow the plants needed to repel an entire Tamarch (pending the development of fresh tactics on the Ta'jinni part).

GladiusNP: I wasn't willing to do the grunt work on Stempa, so good work there. It's past midnight in my time zone, so I can't integrate my post with yours right now, but I like what you've got. Two suggestions: First, naval powers are more Greek; Second, I'm not certain the Stempans need to be involved in the conflict at the beginning, because if they're the fulcrum they'll probably be wiped out between the Cresians and the Ta'Jinn, and I always envisioned them as standing off to the side until someone bought off a city-state or two. But on the other hand, the feudal nature does reflect the reason they're not conquering Cresia themselves... perhaps the feud is going on except without foreign interference, and when the Tamarch passes to the East the winning Tarthusian faction gets nervous and hostilities grind to a halt... temporarily, at least.

That's what I think, anyway.

 

[Morgenstern]

Not entirely accurate as the 'Mongol' peoples were never very good at seige warfare or city administration. What they were good at was incorporating the peoples they had conquered earlier and using them and their skills. As such the elite seige specialist used by the Mongol army were ususally Chinese 'mecenaries'.

I agree. Mongols make good inspiration for the Ta'Jinn (glad folks like the name), but this is that kind of culture at an earlier stage of development, and 'devolving' them a bit will help level the playing field, and better yet, force them to develope tactics rather than ariving on the field fully formed.

Now back to the Jinn - after reviewing the writeups the Ta'Jinn, whilst awesome in concept (and eminently yoinkable) are probably too 'overpowered' for the purposes of our scenario

From what I gleaned via a quick read:

Stempa – Mountain based city-states
Technology: Clerics, Iron, Mining, Ogres
Military: Infantry

Jinn- Steepe Nomads
Technology: Centaurs, Griffons, Chariots, Seige Engines, Archery, Undead, Armour
Military: Cavalry archers, Light Cavalry, Aerial Cavalry, Heavy Infantry

Ausel – Island based raiders
Technology: Ships, Scorcerers, Monsters,
Military: Infantry, Naval raiders

the Jinn have about 8 Technologies and the best military in the known world - compared to everyone else they are practically unstopable

The Stempa's inernal conflicts suggest they should be given regular access to one technology the others have yet to employ on a scale large enough to make difference: spies.

The Ausel (like that name quite a bit ) are still being refined conceptually.

I would adjust the above list in the following ways: the Stempa should be the only folks on the field with heavy armor. It's reserved for elite units, while meium armor is reasonably common. Back everyone else down a notch from their (elites in medium, regulars in light). That adds a technology, and changes their military type from just infantry to skirmisher/marines, medium infantry, and heavy infantry.

I'd cut the Ta'Jinn back a bit by removing chariots (if you were the rulling class, would you want to have something like that hitched to your butt? Sure, it provides cover to the guy in it, but the critter up front is screwed...). Perhaps they'll develope it, but I think the Cressians have the strongest claim on this technology~ they have four-legged powerplants that are expendible, and have already discovered the joys of animal pulled vehicles from their naval excursions). I would drop the seige technolgy as not haveing been developed yet. Their internal squables didn't seem to involve a lot of fortress cracking, and they have no established external enemies to drive it's developement. Finally, I'd think undead would be anathema to them, the tools of the great enemy. The creation of minor constructs still seems rather clever though , so perhaps more of a substitution than a deduction. Finally, for their troops, I'd reduce the prominence of griffon riders. They're there, but Id suggest their numbers are small enoug and the utility high enough that they're employed as scouts, couriers, and extremely mobile magic platforms, not as massed units for direct physcial strikes.

Resated this way we have:

Stempa – Mountain based city-states
Politics: Divisive religions control
Magic type(s): Moderate use of Clerics (multiple domains)
Technology: Heavy Armor, Iron, Mining, Ogres, Spies
Military: Skirmisher/Marines, Medium Infantry, Heavy Infantry

Jinn- Steepe Nomads
Politics: Central authority, influneced by coulcil of diverse intrests
Magic type(s): Light use of Sorcerers (scrying and communication)
Technology: Centaurs, Griffons, Archery, Minor Constructs, Mobile Fortification
Military: Cavalry archers, Light Cavalry, Light Infantry, Aerial Reconnaisance

Ausel – Island based raiders
Politics: Magical Oligarchy?
Magic Type(s): Heavy use of Wizards
Technology: Ships, Scorcerers, Monsters
Military: Infantry, Naval raiders

Cressia - Plains farmers
Politics: Dual religous orders
Magic type(s): Heavy use of Druids, some bards
Technology: Organic fortifications, Lycanthropes, Summoned Monsters
Military - Druidic small units, Beastmen, Light Infantry

There's a lot happening in the set up of this round. What did I miss in the above summary?

 

[s/LaSH]

There's a lot happening in the set up of this round. What did I miss in the above summary?

I think you missed the Cresian naval forces... while they're not too useful against a Ta'jinn invasion, the Cresian River has been excavated and maintained with a deep central channel that allows ships to navigate its entire length without hindrance, and that is an advantage. (Plus there are the scurvy sea dogs, arr, and their cetacean technology.) I think Cresia might have a few monster units, too, from Auselen traders.

I'd agree that the griffin riders aren't a predominant battlefield force. As they're ridden by godsblood sorcerers, by and large, they're very useful in surgical strikes that do massive damage very quickly.

Chariots... good point. The question is, Do the Cresians have the inclination to develop them? Their nation is largely built around agriculture and the Cresian River, at least to my mind, but the river is days' travel from most regions of Cresia, even though it's the spine of trade. So they have developed roads, and carts (although some regions might use dolphins in irrigation channels instead of land-based beasts of burden). From there, chariots might have been developed, especially during the expansionist phase, and most of Cresia was plains at that point. I think the Cresians are likely to have chariots, all things considered, and reliable ones too.

Does anyone think the Cresians would have access to elephants or mammoths? Probably not, all things considered. I've looked at the size of the battlefield, and from Jonga to the distant reaches of the Ta'jinn lands it's not quite as wide as Turkey (with Cyprus taking the role of Ausel). Hm, that could be useful for further geographical positioning...

 

[Morgenstern]

Ah...! Then Cressians need to be duly noted as having one more technology, and a doozy at that: roads.

Cavalry is great and all, but nobody runs all cav armies. Road multiply the mobility of infantry forces and make wheel-based supply lines possible in your own territories. Excellent. This give the Cressian a great advantage compared to the other three cultures.