Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Flynn]

Good Morning, All,

Based on discussion in the following thread, I've volunteered to put together a streamlined OGL Fantasy variant, incorporating many of the basic elements of Star Wars Saga Edition that can be traced to OGL products:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200428

This thread is intended to cover a majority of the discussion on what is considered "sacred" to such a project, and similar topics. Your input is welcome. Please keep in mind that we want to maintain an experience that is as close to the standard game as possible, within the context of the new streamlined system.

I call this project "Fantasy Concepts". I am aiming for a delivery date of October 2007. When done, the finished product will be available in both PDF and Print On Demand.

One thing to remember: in order to stay legal, we should avoid using anything that we cannot back up as having derived from Open Game Content. This limitation will probably drive a number of decisions about what is put into the system. However, I am sure that there will be few, if any, problems in finding precedent within the vast volume of Open Game Content.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Please keep in mind that we want to maintain an experience that is as close to the standard game as possible, within the context of the new streamlined system.

We do? Could you clarify this, please? Is the goal to play D&D with one attack, 3 types of defense and the rest being D&D tropes?

By OGL Saga Fantasy I understand using the Saga system for fantasy - not shoehorning Saga to play D&D. D&D IMO is its own genre, with it does just fine. The way Saga does things allows IMO for a different feel - and not just streamlined gameplay - and I'm after both. In other words: I want Saga fantasy, not house ruled D&D

But no matter the goal, here are a few issues I feel are essential to using Saga for fantasy:

•Magic, of course. Using the Force powers as a baseline, one will get a nice magic feel, IMO. However, spellcasters do enjoy fireballs and the like, and we need a system for allowing such things, keeping them viable and still not just playing D&D. As has been discussed in the E6 threads, it would be nice if 'D&D spells', that is those spells that sooner or later more or less controls the way the DM can construct his scenarios (Commune, Teleport, Raise Dead, Save or Die spells, and others) could be kept optional.

•Classes. Warriors, Scoundrels etc. And we need a dedicated Spellcaster (Magic-User) Class.

•Equipment. In Saga, characters seem much less dependant on equipment, which is nice. But we need to make different kinds of armor and weapons viable choices. Otherwise, no one will use anything but a long sword since you only crit on a 20. Rapier and such needs to be viable.

•Healing. How hard? How easy. Reserve points, perhaps.

•Stunts and challenges from Iron Heroes/Mythic Heroes would fit Saga Fantasy well, I think. So would action zones.

•Monsters. I feel Beasts fill that role for a vast majority of monsters. The different kinds of monsters (giants, vermin, predators, etc.) could get a template that modifies certain abilities (so that Vermin are immune to mind affecting, Predators might get an attack bonus etc.) - I would certainly do something for outsiders (since demons must be powerful) and dragons (even more so). Undeads as well. The True20 Bestiary might be a good source for ideas.

•Mass Combat. I had an idea about having companies/armies have stats like vehicles do and fighting it out like two vehicles or something like that. I think it could work really nice.

At the same time, we need to keep Saga's streamlined play. So the above mentioned should (must) be doable without rules by exception or whatever it's called.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm looking forward to seeing this evolve

 

[Flynn]

•Magic, of course. Using the Force powers as a baseline, one will get a nice magic feel, IMO. However, spellcasters do enjoy fireballs and the like, and we need a system for allowing such things, keeping them viable and still not just playing D&D. As has been discussed in the E6 threads, it would be nice if 'D&D spells', that is those spells that sooner or later more or less controls the way the DM can construct his scenarios (Commune, Teleport, Raise Dead, Save or Die spells, and others) could be kept optional.

Let's nip this one in the bud right now: I'm not devising a new magic system based on action points for this project. That's too much work for the deliverable date we're aiming for, and not everyone will agree to the final implementation. Also, there's little, if any, precedence in Open Game Content for us to fall back on in these regards, so there are legal issues I'd be concerned with.

While people don't necessarily like the Vancian system, at least everyone can agree that it's considered somewhat core to the majority of the D20-based fantasy experience, and it is definitely considered Open Game Content.

Someone may surprise me with something I haven't considered that's OGL, but otherwise, it's a matter of CYA, if you catch my drift. Since I'm taking the legal risk, I have to make decisions based on that.

My Apologies For Any Disappointment,
Flynn

 

[Flynn]

We do? Could you clarify this, please? Is the goal to play D&D with one attack, 3 types of defense and the rest being D&D tropes?

By OGL Saga Fantasy I understand using the Saga system for fantasy - not shoehorning Saga to play D&D. D&D IMO is its own genre, with it does just fine. The way Saga does things allows IMO for a different feel - and not just streamlined gameplay - and I'm after both. In other words: I want Saga fantasy, not house ruled D&D

From my perspective, if I'm going to do the work to create something like this, it should appeal to the most people that it can. A certain degree of D&D tropes are necessary in those regards, because the more you drift from that model, the less appeal the product has overall. That's where I'm coming from.

There's still plenty of room for customization by individuals through the use of new talent trees, etc. The core system should be built to support that. Indeed, the Vancian magic system I'm considering is purely talent tree-based, and so can be dropped and replaced by another other talent/feat/action point system one might create on their own. The approach makes it modular, and that gives you power as the GM.

I think you will find that the rules will allow you the versatility to capture a different feel for your fantasy gaming, the Saga Fantasy you seek, and it will not be just a house ruled D&D clone. But for those that want D&D shoehorned into Saga, there should be some capacity for them to get what they seek as well.

It's a balancing act,
Flynn

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Someone may surprise me with something I haven't considered that's OGL, but otherwise, it's a matter of CYA, if you catch my drift. Since I'm taking the legal risk, I have to make decisions based on that.

True20 powers?

My Apologies For Any Disappointment,
Flynn

No need for that

From my perspective, if I'm going to do the work to create something like this, it should appeal to the most people that it can. A certain degree of D&D tropes are necessary in those regards, because the more you drift from that model, the less appeal the product has overall. That's where I'm coming from.

There's still plenty of room for customization by individuals through the use of new talent trees, etc. The core system should be built to support that. Indeed, the Vancian magic system I'm considering is purely talent tree-based, and so can be dropped and replaced by another other talent/feat/action point system one might create on their own. The approach makes it modular, and that gives you power as the GM.

I think you will find that the rules will allow you the versatility to capture a different feel for your fantasy gaming, the Saga Fantasy you seek, and it will not be just a house ruled D&D clone. But for those that want D&D shoehorned into Saga, there should be some capacity for them to get what they seek as well.

It's a balancing act,
Flynn

That sounds fine with me. Must say, I really don't mind the Vancian system, but I really like the per encounter vibe that's been prominent lately.
Are you familiar with Legends of Sorcery and/or BESM advanced Magic? They allow AFAIK the Vancian spells to be used with a Use The Magic skill.

 

[Particle_Man]

I did notice that the Rogue got depowered a bit in some ways in SWSE. If you can only get 10 talents by level 20 in scoundrel, you can't get 10d6 sneak attack *and* both versions of uncanny dodge *and* evasion in less than 13 talents.

On the other hand, sneak attack is not limited by the type of creature it can affect.

 

[Flynn]

True20 powers?

Those are really the balliwick of True20, aren't they? If I were to use any other system other than a traditional Vancian, my first thought would be to use E. N. Publishing's Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth system. It is feat and skill based, and works pretty well.

That sounds fine with me. Must say, I really don't mind the Vancian system, but I really like the per encounter vibe that's been prominent lately.
Are you familiar with Legends of Sorcery and/or BESM advanced Magic? They allow AFAIK the Vancian spells to be used with a Use The Magic skill.

I don't have the WOTC sourcebooks that promote a lot of the per encounter vibe, so I'm afraid I'm missing out. I'm not acquainted with either system you've mentioned, but what little I have heard about Legends of Sorcery is filled with high praise.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Flynn]

I did notice that the Rogue got depowered a bit in some ways in SWSE. If you can only get 10 talents by level 20 in scoundrel, you can't get 10d6 sneak attack *and* both versions of uncanny dodge *and* evasion in less than 13 talents.

On the other hand, sneak attack is not limited by the type of creature it can affect.

That will happen, but truth be told, that's not so bad a thing, when you consider the addition of a low Massive Damage Threshold and a Conditions chart. It doesn't take as much to take your foes down a notch or two. Also, it opens the Rogue to pursue other types of concepts, such as an improved Expert class, which could be more skill-based.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Acid_crash]

Why would you try and shoehorn in a Vancian magic system into a Saga Fantasy game when the Force system in SWSE works just fine and much better?

If I want Vancian magic, I would play D&D. You put in Vancian magic, than that is too close to D&D, and part of what makes Saga edition so great is that it is different.

Just rename Force = Magic. Rename the Force Power = Magic Spells.

Create new Magic Spells.

Here an example that is by no means really playtested, but just for kicks:
Fireball is an area effect attack, with a radius of 4 squares, that does 6d6 damage on a successful hit and half damage if the attack roll is less than the Reflex Defense. The range of the fireball can be 20 squares, must make an attack roll and compare to all Reflex Defenses in the radius.

I mean, just one way of creating a spell. This was spur of the moment.

Rename Force Training = Spell Training. Take the Jedi = Spellcaster/Mystic.

Create a couple of new Talent trees, possibly all based on the major classes of spells in D&D, for those who might want to specialize.

But please don't use Vancian magic, because there is no need at all. I got D&D, and all the house rules for that. I don't need another Vancian magic system game. It's been done to death for the last 30 years, why replace something new and exciting with something as old as this. Boring.

Just my opinion, my .02

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Must say I agree with Acid Chrash - hence my suggestion to be inspired by True20 Powers for 'spell' ideas when using a Use the Force/Magic skill.

I can completely understand why you would keep the Vancian system, to make it more broadly appealing. But I think Acid Chash is right.