Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Chris_Nightwing]

Ooh we get to see some of the work ! I think that moving cultural abilities to a talent tree is by far the greatest plan ever. However, I think you definitely need to give the races their biological natural abilities when they start the game. Also, do simplify them - the Saga races don't have complicated caveats associated with their bonuses or rerolls, so clear them up from D&D. Make the Elven strong mind thing into +2 Will, the Dwarven spell/poison thing into +2 Fort and it clears stuff up nicely. Giving Half-Orcs and Half-Elves access to both parents' talent trees will also make them much more appealing too. Please put a Wookiee-style rage into the Orc tree!

Responding to the condition track discussion - I think having a positive end would work well. I think you could avoid stacking effects by simply stating that higher-level sources supercede lower-level ones (So the equivalent of Recitation would be two steps up the track, and supercede the one step of Bless or Prayer (which also moves enemies down one step!). Have no spells stack, in fact have nothing stack for the purposes of going up the track. I'm envisioning a gorgeous level 9 spell that gives you the +10 to everything! As for effects such as poison etc. - it's ok not to use the track for some things. You might just be suffering a penalty to one aspect of your dice-rolls, or indeed a bonus (such as rage only adding to hit and damage, thank god they simplified that one). They've really tried to avoid temporary stat mod effects in Saga - carry this through if possible, although I guess Bull's Strength is still a classic useful spell.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

In reply to Mokona:

Damage bonus of +1/2 character level probably translates fine - but then I'd stick with 3xHP at first level, as even though weapons do less damage on average, spells do lots more.

Defense bonus ought to translate - but then I worry about touch attacks, they would need an adjusted mechanic. As for armor, I think you'll lose lots of the D&D flavour if you reduce it to just fighters who get their bonuses. Obviously automatically stacking them wouldn't work either - therein lays the problem.

I'm still unsure about modifying the fragility of Wizards with more BAB and HP, but it sort of needs doing I guess. I'd also give clerics more skills than fighters, just my preference.

 

[Flynn]

Damage bonus of +1/2 character level probably translates fine - but then I'd stick with 3xHP at first level, as even though weapons do less damage on average, spells do lots more.

I tend to agree with the 3x at first level, simply for the sake of character longevity.

Defense bonus ought to translate - but then I worry about touch attacks, they would need an adjusted mechanic. As for armor, I think you'll lose lots of the D&D flavour if you reduce it to just fighters who get their bonuses. Obviously automatically stacking them wouldn't work either - therein lays the problem.

There are still a few things that have to be worked out in that direction. Given the Class Defense mechanics found in Unearthed Arcana, it may be simplest to implement a base of armor replaces character level. As for touch attacks, I'm sure we will come up with something, probably a static adjustment to the attack roll when attempting a touch attack, for the sake of simplicity.

I'm still unsure about modifying the fragility of Wizards with more BAB and HP, but it sort of needs doing I guess. I'd also give clerics more skills than fighters, just my preference.

Unless the advancement in Defenses is adjusted, there is definitely a need to improve the Wizard's BAB. Hitpoints are another matter, but BAB may be a problem. The following table demonstrates the Sage Defense progression against the average attack roll progression of standard D&D (assuming that the character rolls a 10 on their d20 attack). At 10th level, the arcanist must roll a 15 to hit, compared to the warrior's 10. At 15th level, the arcanist needs an 18 to hit, compared to the warrior's 10. At 20th level, the arcanist needs a natural 20 to hit.

Level	Defense	Arcane	Divine	Warrior
1	11	10	10	11
2	12	11	11	12
3	13	11	12	13
4	14	12	13	14
5	15	12	13	15
6	16	13	14	16
7	17	13	15	17
8	18	14	16	18
9	19	14	16	19
10	20	15	17	20
11	21	15	18	21
12	22	16	19	22
13	23	16	19	23
14	24	17	20	24
15	25	17	21	25
16	26	18	22	26
17	27	18	22	27
18	28	19	23	28
19	29	19	24	29
20	30	20	25	30

Using the last three columns, you can see what the progression might look like if you used a Defense rate of 3/4*level (Divine) or 1/2*level (Arcane).

In essence, I think we would either have to adjust the base Defense advancement to 3/4*level or up the arcanist's BAB, if we wanted to keep the arcanist effective at higher levels.

What do you as players feel would be the best approach to this particular issue?

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[drothgery]

There are still a few things that have to be worked out in that direction. Given the Class Defense mechanics found in Unearthed Arcana, it may be simplest to implement a base of armor replaces character level.

That's definitely the simplest thing to do, but it also means that you're effectively moving to a 'high level characters don't wear armor unless they're tanks who've invested lots of resources (feats/talents) in armor' model instead of D&D's standard 'high level characters wear armor unless they'd lose major abilities by wearing it (arcane spellcasting, monk abiliites)' model.

 

[Dalamar]

I would definately suggest keeping the triple HP at first level and increasing weapon damage to Saga levels so that fighter-types actually have a decent chance to breach the Damage Treshold of their enemies.

As an idea, the two-way Condition Track sounds nice. I'm just not sure whether it would work in actual play as one has to take into account actions such as recovering and such. That would be because you would not only have to keep track of your position on the track, you would also need to know how many steps you have on the negative side so you know if you can recover them.
Though it might be feasible to make a separate "Inspiration Track" or something similar that is tracked separately from the Condition Track.

Also of note is that if feats are considered trained and talents racial abilities, then as you currently have it all elves are trained to be perceptive and to notice secret doors instead of having naturally sharp senses. Just an observation.

As to the Arcanist BAB vs. base Defenses, adjusting base Defense down increases the time that armor continues to be a feasible option for non-fighters if one is to keep the standard Saga assumption. However, it also makes skill-bases attacks much more potent as they continue to advance at the previous rate. It's a trade off, really. Personally, I would go for increasing the BAB of arcanists, as that could also be considered the fix to touch spells.
I don't think the increase to d6 HD is paramount to the Saga version arcanist, but it would make it more survivable.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I strongly prefer upping the BAB instead of altering a core Saga mechanic (which IMO would be opposite the purpose of using Saga for fantasy).

The more I think on this Saga fantasy thingie and read on this thread, the more I feel that magic and especially mages are going to be the biggest hurdle. As things seems to be going (IMO), the mage will get better HP, better BAB, better AC and better saves, and at the same time keeping Vancian magic(?). Furthermore, he needs to be balanced with melee types that have no iterative attacks and only crits on a 20. Difficult.

I really enjoy the racial discussions and the advanced/PrC ideas as well. Racial talents, class core abilities a la Spycraft and True20 and maybe racial core abilities as well to me seems like thingies that aren't that difficult to work out, more like things that need ideas and more ideas and then settling down on some of those ideas.

But I just feel magic needs much more work than races and classes - yet we haven't spend that much time on magic (other that speaking for or against Vancian magic). IMO, magic defines much of the feel of a given fantasy system.
So here's my vote: Since this product must have Vancian magic, I suggest we concentrate for a while on implementing Vancian magic in the Saga system. And what is the Saga system then? IMO, it's feat and talent based and it's encounter based.

Thoughts?

P.S.: Legends of Sorcery and Spellbound (for Spycraft) maybe good places to start.

 

[Flynn]

That's definitely the simplest thing to do, but it also means that you're effectively moving to a 'high level characters don't wear armor unless they're tanks who've invested lots of resources (feats/talents) in armor' model instead of D&D's standard 'high level characters wear armor unless they'd lose major abilities by wearing it (arcane spellcasting, monk abiliites)' model.

The problem that we run into is simple: The Reflex Defense is always increasing, so it always gets better than a static modifier based on armor. In order to keep with the concept of a 'high level characters wear armor unless they'd lose major abilities by wearing it (arcane spellcasting, monk abiliites)' model, we'd likely have to make armor additive with the level adjustment to Reflex Defense, instead of replacing the level adjustment.

To make the math work out, we're likely to have to change the modifier to AC into a Reflex Defense modifier, likely by dividing it by two, rounded down. Otherwise the numbers would get ugly quick.

And then how do you handle magical armor? The numbers would then just get ridiculous. Yeah, there needs to be something in these regards, if the D&D concept is to be maintained. If the Saga concept is to be maintained, the 'high level characters don't wear armor unless they're tanks who've invested lots of resources (feats/talents) in armor' model fits that.

So, I guess the question here becomes: "in terms of armor, which do we pay homage to: Saga or D&D?" The answer to that question will guide us in the right direction.

I'm inclined towards the Saga concept, because of the OGL Fantasy Saga nature of this effort. This does create a different feel than standard D&D, at least in terms of combat. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say on this particular topic.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[tsadkiel]

So, I guess the question here becomes: "in terms of armor, which do we pay homage to: Saga or D&D?" The answer to that question will guide us in the right direction.

For what it's worth, in my D&D games, nobody wears armor unless they've invested resources in armor. Our games tend to be atypical, however - many mages and rogues, few fighters, and we play at high levels, so Bracers of defense are easy to come by.

 

[Flynn]

The more I think on this Saga fantasy thingie and read on this thread, the more I feel that magic and especially mages are going to be the biggest hurdle. As things seems to be going (IMO), the mage will get better HP, better BAB, better AC and better saves, and at the same time keeping Vancian magic(?). Furthermore, he needs to be balanced with melee types that have no iterative attacks and only crits on a 20. Difficult.

I don't think better HP are garaunteed here, but it does look like the rest are going that way. It is a difficult challenge.

As an aside, EditorBFG and I are currently discussing the "only crits on a 20" issue. We realize that dropping all weapons to the core "crit 20/x2" approach of Saga removes a lot of diversity in weapon selections, but is in keeping with the Saga concept. We are still trying to decide on which path to take. Any thoughts on this matter?

I really enjoy the racial discussions and the advanced/PrC ideas as well. Racial talents, class core abilities a la Spycraft and True20 and maybe racial core abilities as well to me seems like thingies that aren't that difficult to work out, more like things that need ideas and more ideas and then settling down on some of those ideas.

Please feel free to post your ideas, so that I can see what you are contemplating. I'm currently not inclined either for or against the concept, so I'd like to see more detail before I make up my mind in these regards.

But I just feel magic needs much more work than races and classes - yet we haven't spend that much time on magic (other that speaking for or against Vancian magic). IMO, magic defines much of the feel of a given fantasy system.
So here's my vote: Since this product must have Vancian magic, I suggest we concentrate for a while on implementing Vancian magic in the Saga system. And what is the Saga system then? IMO, it's feat and talent based and it's encounter based.

Thoughts?

P.S.: Legends of Sorcery and Spellbound (for Spycraft) maybe good places to start.

We've been talking about magic behind the scenes here, and we're looking at primarily a skill-based approach that uses the Vancian spells instead of being effects-based. I'll agree that Saga takes a skill/feat/talent-based approach to the Force, but I'll also agree that magic in the average fantasy game is much, much more than a small handful of special effects that is the Force subsystem in Saga. I don't want an effects-based, on-the-fly system for this project. (If I did, Mythic Earth would win, hands down.) I like the concept of spells as defined by a Vancian system of pre-defined spells with pre-defined effects, so that gamers can use their old spell lists without having to totally rewrite their current campaign setting.

Our discussion has been inspired by the suggested sources you've listed above, as well as other sources in the OGC.

More concrete suggestions would be appreciated, and will likely get you further in discussions.

Hope This Helps,
Flynn

 

[drothgery]

The problem that we run into is simple: The Reflex Defense is always increasing, so it always gets better than a static modifier based on armor. In order to keep with the concept of a 'high level characters wear armor unless they'd lose major abilities by wearing it (arcane spellcasting, monk abiliites)' model, we'd likely have to make armor additive with the level adjustment to Reflex Defense, instead of replacing the level adjustment.

To make the math work out, we're likely to have to change the modifier to AC into a Reflex Defense modifier, likely by dividing it by two, rounded down. Otherwise the numbers would get ugly quick.

And then how do you handle magical armor? The numbers would then just get ridiculous. Yeah, there needs to be something in these regards, if the D&D concept is to be maintained. If the Saga concept is to be maintained, the 'high level characters don't wear armor unless they're tanks who've invested lots of resources (feats/talents) in armor' model fits that.

Well, how you handle magic armor is going to bounce off how you handle magic weapons, but I'd be inclined to eliminate or strongly limit enhancement bonuses to ref def no matter how you do magic armor.

So, I guess the question here becomes: "in terms of armor, which do we pay homage to: Saga or D&D?" The answer to that question will guide us in the right direction.

I'm inclined towards the Saga concept, because of the OGL Fantasy Saga nature of this effort. This does create a different feel than standard D&D, at least in terms of combat. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say on this particular topic.

It seems to me that if you're keeping the arcane/divine split, then you're playing homage to D&D and should do it all the way.