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Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

If you take the number of views for this thread, and divide by the number of posts, you get just over 14. While not a true representation, it does indicate that at least 14 people are reading this thread.

With that in mind, I'd like to hear from some of you guys that haven't posted yet, just to make sure we're not catering Fantasy Concepts to the most vocal parties. That's one of the reasons I ask for thoughts and input, so that I can see what people think and desire in a finished product of this nature. So please feel free to speak out, so your voice can be heard.

With Regards,
Flynn
 

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Hrm, seems it's a popular line of thought, this Sagaizing D&D. I've been thinking on it as well.

For myself, I've mainly been going the route of House Rules, bolting in things that I felt could be changed on the fly to keep conversion to a minimum. I am going to be running the Savage Tide AP soon and would like to be able to pick it up and run it along side characters using Saga'd rules.

This is made somewhat more difficult in that I've not actually gotten my hands on Saga. I've HEARD the concepts, and largely gone: "Oh, wow, why didn't -I- think of that? That's quite elegant, really."

I've been toying about with a per-encounter Vancian magic system for a week or so now, trying to work out the kinks. While I was at it, I threw out the current spell durations.

Wouldn't it be entirely within the OGL to use the Vancian system as it, but just tweak the refresh rate for spells and the number of slots?

Or at least start from there. Perhaps split out granting slots into talents of some sort. But begin with what we have in the OGL and start shaving.

I've been playing with dividing the current slots by 3 and rounding, with 0s kept. This keeps the bonus slots from high ability scores, and actually makes one almost dependent on them (as you may have a level or two of ACCESS to a spell level, but without slots). Then the character can refresh spells similarly to the current system, but with a 5-10 minute rest period instead of 8 hours.

Not perfect yet, by far, but a general enough description to get the gist of it. Talents, then, could be used to move up a unified casting table.

Basically it becomes enforced resource management + flexibility. The perfect balance would be where the characters cast, on average, the same number of spells they would under the normal Vancian system (through various restrictions and stimuli) but not be restricted to an artificial stopping point created by the 8 hour rest cycle. I.E. if a particular adventuring "day" were longer, they could cast more spells before going to bed. This should average out, however, with those 'shorter' days spent in RP, etc, where the characters go to bed having cast FEWER spells than usual.

--fje
 

I really can't think of a resolution for the armor, reflex defense mess. One thing that really goes against D&D concepts is that even with a max dex bonus, serious armor adds to your reflex save/defense. Since there's not much differentiation between classes at high levels, the levels you have access to serious armor, warriors will be better at avoiding fireballs than rogues (although they do get evasion). This -sort- of makes sense, the fireball smacks into your plate and not into you, but still seems a bit against previous archetypes. I'm stumped.

Weapon-wise, I think you should allow for critical ranges and x3 or x4 weapons. Streamline the available set though. The standard martial weapon set seems to be: 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 (2H or 1H with feat) -> 2d6/1d12 2H. The basic set would seem to be clubs/maces. Then there are martial swords at 19-20/x2, sharp swords at 18-20/x2 with a step down in damage dice, axes at x3, hammers at x3, picks at a dice down x4. Polearms, flails, etc. are a bit bleh. My point I guess is unifying the weapon size to damage dice progression across the main weapon categories.

Finally, on magic, I can't suggest anything to solve that either. I will suggest that since static defenses make spell DCs redundant, the 'magic attack' modifier for a character should be 10 + character level + relevant stat modifier. Scrap caster level and just make it character level across the board - although I guess this depends on how you're granting access to the spells exactly. Obviously if you take only one level of Mage you should only be casting level one spells (or equivalents).
 

Chris_Nightwing said:
I really can't think of a resolution for the armor, reflex defense mess.
What about instead, of an armor bonus replacing your class bonus, gaining an armor bonus to Reflex Defense halves your class bonus? That would keep armor attractive as one goes up in level.
 

Armor Equipment

Character level + D&D armor bonus + magic armor bonus = craziness for fighters (who in Saga can stack 50% of their armor bonus)!

As noted character level > D&D armor bonus means most high level characters won't wear armor under Saga rules (unlike Dungeons & Dragons).

Potential solutions include...

Move most of the benefit of armor over to Fort Defense where it always stacks with character level. Then you have to make sure average damage is neither too low nor too high using staple fantasy weapons, Giant monsters, and level 9 spells (versus level appropriate Fort Defense values). This is like the Unearthed Arcana rules for "Armor as DR". Rogues and Wizards probably won't wear armor (which fits the theme of D&D ignoring silliness like mithril breastplates) and fighter/clerics can still get fort bonuses from armor even if (for the cleric) the reflex bonus is less than their level.

Lower armor bonuses significantly (light = +1, medium = +2, and heavy = +3) so stacking armor with level isn't busted.

Significantly lower the penalties for wearing armor so even if you don't get the benefits of reflex defense (because your character level is higher) you don't pay much for the other benefits of wearing armor.

Consider the impact of shields (buckler, light, heavy, and tower) on Reflex Defense.

Remember, since more monsters are published for core d20 rules than these rules a Dungeon Master will want to use them without worrying about conversion. Monster to hit values are based on armor with magic defense bonuses.
 

Flynn said:
With that in mind, I'd like to hear from some of you guys that haven't posted yet, just to make sure we're not catering Fantasy Concepts to the most vocal parties. That's one of the reasons I ask for thoughts and input, so that I can see what people think and desire in a finished product of this nature. So please feel free to speak out, so your voice can be heard.
Well, I have posted (once, several pages ago), but I guess I can post again...

I guess I'm pretty convinced that I'm going to fiddle with the final results of this effort, no matter what the end product comes out as. There are a number of ideas I'm interested in that I don't think are going to see too wide of an audience, but I can always tweak things to my tastes. Really, I could do this with just SWSaga and a few things like Fantastic Classes, but I think it will be useful to see what you end up coming up with.

Some example of what I'm talking about when I say that I'm looking at ideas that I think maybe aren't / shouldn't be the way you're going:
* Armor as DR
* "Prestige" Talent trees instead of prestige classes
* A less D&D-feel magic system
* A different set of ability scores
* Focus more extending my personal "sweet spot" rather than 1st to 20th levels

Also, as I've mentioned before, the more modular the system the better, for me at least...
 

Flynn said:
As an aside, EditorBFG and I are currently discussing the "only crits on a 20" issue. We realize that dropping all weapons to the core "crit 20/x2" approach of Saga removes a lot of diversity in weapon selections, but is in keeping with the Saga concept. We are still trying to decide on which path to take. Any thoughts on this matter?

All weapons are 20/x2. Fighters are able to take feats in a "weapon mastery" tree that increases attack, damage, crit range and multiplier. Which attributes are increased first depends on the type of weapon.

Longsword Form

  1. +1 attack
  2. +2 damage
  3. 19-20 critical range
  4. +2 attack
  5. +4 damage
  6. 18-20 critical hit.

Battle Axe Form

  1. +1 attack
  2. +2 damage
  3. x3 critical multiplier
  4. +2 attack
  5. +4 damage
  6. x4 critical multiplier

Something like that. This way, the country bumpkin who has picked up his woodcutter's axe to avenge his burned village can have a lucky shot. The trained warrior is able to captialize on the axe's inherent cutting power.
 


Weapons: I like Baron Opal's approach to weapons. However, I think I would prefer if it was more 'generic' and the effects thus could apply to the weapon at hand. That is, let there be a weapon mastery feat chain. 5 lvl tier, as suggested by Baron O. But the benefits gained depend on the weapon being used at the moment. (Or it could be the wielder's choice which bonus to apply). Let the chain be bonus feats only to warriors.
This will avoid the 'married to a weapon' trope of D&D that I really dislike. Once you have spent one feat on a given weapon, you use that type exclusively for the rest of the campaign. In my campaigns, weapon focus applies to 'melee weapons' or 'missile weapons'. Same with weapon spec.
By making the feat chain generic, warriors are badass with all weapons, in different ways. Might keep them up to par with spellcasters.

Another very simple solution could just be to increase the damage multiplier of rapiers etc. by one. So longsword 1d8/x2, rapier 1d6/x3.

Armor: Think this is very difficult. On one side, spending three talents should be awarded, on the other side, this will make heavy armored warriors impossible to hit. The problem is mainly due to magic armors, shields, amulets and rings. Without these, a fighter could end up around Reflex 43 which is still crazy, but with them madness ensues.

Core: Acore ability for each class could be to be able to use AP's for things normally not allowed (increase fort defense for fighters after knowing the result of the dice) plus when using APs for this and core activities (attack, skill use, spellcasting, domain power, etc.) increase the die to d8's (stackable with that feat, so you can end up with d10's).

Other core uses could be access to any feat on the class' bonus feat list, access to a talent, spell, and such.

You only get the core ability of the class you start in at 1st lvl.

Magic: My non patented shot at a magic system.
In very short, pick a feat named Gifted or such. This allows you to make Use Magic skill checks and so on a la Force Sensitive.

Now, you can learn spells. You can learn spells of a level equal to half your Mage level (round up).

Take the feat Magic Training. This feat is on the Mage class' bonus feat list! Each time you pick it, you gain spell picks equal to Spellcasting Stat +1. Use these picks to learn a new spell or another use of a known spell. Spells cost half their level in picks to learn or use more than once. 0-level spells costs ½ pick.

Spells recharge as per Saga. However, any and all 'out of combat spells' (buff, healing, fly, invisibility and so on) cast out of an encounter is considered spent when the next encounter begins! This is a bit of metagaming to control unlimited healing, buffs, etc. If you have two slots of healing, you can use two heals between encounters, but not more, and when the next encounter begins, the slots are not available.
Feats can help out here, as well as APs. Maybe feats can allow swapping between spells?

Meta Magic is done via talents. Each metamagic talent chosen allows the use of one use of metamagic per minute. Each talent can be taken multiple times, to be usable more than once per minute (or stacking). Half level limit for learning spells apply. I was thinking that using meta magic would be a full round action.

I'm thinking a 20th level mage could have something like 120 spell picks (stat +6 giving 7 picks times 17 feats). If this is not enough, consider using picks to by 'spell level slots' instead of just the additional use of a spell.


Comments?
 

I think what Baron Opal has done is pretty cool, but my strong inclination is not to use simplified Saga crits for this. This is one area where what is good for space opera is not good for the tropes of fantasy.

In Star Wars, everyone has some kind of blaster or a lightsaber, or maybe a vibro-weapon. The real difference between categories is the technology powering the weapon, represented by the number of dice of damage it rolls.

In fantasy, there are longswords, shortswords, bastard swords, greatswords, rapiers, scimitars, falchions, and two-bladed swords-- and that's just swords. The variety of melee weapons is much larger, and interwoven with the flavor of the game. Differing critical ranges is a part of making weapons different. If someone else has a way to ditch them while maintaining the mechanical individuality of weapons, I'm all ears.

Besides, since weapon damages are often lower in fantasy, having increased likelihood of critical hits or larger multipliers is not unbalancing. using SRD weapon damage, the toughest weapon for a medium-sized PC is the 2d6 greatsword-- as opposed to the 3d10 bowcaster, 3d12 E-web, or 6d6 missile launcher. There were good reasons to simplify crits in Star Wars, but those reasons do not exist for a Fantasy system.
 

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