Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Mokona]

On top of D&D-style stat boosting items... anything beyond the d20 SRD one bump/4 levels is too much.

Could you please be more specific as to why?

Personally, I strongly favor removing almost all stat boosting magic items (does Saga have any such thing). Once you remove stat boosting magic items it's ok to give each race access to a racial talent that gives a +2 to one Ability score. This ability score bump should come with at least two (2) or more racial talent prerequisites. Furthermore, humans should have access to such a boost as well and should be allowed to use it (once and only once) on any Ability score of their choice.

Now that sounds cool!

Humans should have a racial talent tree...

 

[Flynn]

Humans should have a racial talent tree...

Personally, I agree. They have a paragon racial class, so I think a talent tree setup that emulates paragon racial levels should do so for all core races. However, BFGEditor has his reasons for not providing humans with one, which he has already stated. If you'd like to see one added for humans, please give your thoughts behind your words, for his consideration. It often helps in us making decisions if people provide detailed feedback to support their thoughts.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[tsadkiel]

Could you please be more specific as to why?

Personally, I strongly favor removing almost all stat boosting magic items (does Saga have any such thing).

Saga doesn't have stat boosting items. Saga doesn't have stat boosting Force powers or racial abilities, either; rage and the like give bonuses to hit and damage rather than to ability scores. It's one of the subtler innovations, and one I'd like to see carried over, but since Fantasy Concepts is using d20 sells, I'm not sure how to do so.

 

[drothgery]

Could you please be more specific as to why?

Because it would then be simple and cheap for a human with average rolled stats to have two stats above 20 by level 8 or so.

 

[Flynn]

Because it would then be simple and cheap for a human with average rolled stats to have two stats above 20 by level 8 or so.

Assuming the standard array (which is admittedly low for most campaigns), the stats are: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Bumping two up each time gives us the following at 8th level: 17, 16, 13, 12, 10, 8. Two stat-bump items of around, what, +4, would give us: 21, 20, 13, 12, 10, 8.

D&D would be, under the same circumstances: 21, 18, 13, 12, 10, 8. That's a difference of one stat having a +5 modifier instead of a +4 modifier. What is the criteria behind evaluating something as unbalancing in these regards?

At 20th level, we'd see the following in Saga (assuming two stat bump items at +6):
26, 25, 13, 12, 10, 8

With D&D being:
26, 20, 13, 12, 10, 8

At 20th level, the difference becomes a +5 modifier compared to a +7 modifier, or a +2 difference in stat mods for a secondary ability score. That's not bad for a range of 20 levels, I would think. Then again, I'm sure it depends on the class and the stat as to how it would impact the game. Considering that it's a secondary ability score, it does help the MAD classes, but otherwise, its impact seems minor.

Of course, I could be wrong here.

To help me see the point here, what is the impact of having a +2 higher modifier than normal in Strength at 20th level?
In Dexterity?
In Constitution?
In Intelligence?
In Wisdom?
In Charisma?
And are any of them truely unbalancing? (Maybe we can fix the exceptions instead of addressing the modifier issue...)

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[EditorBFG]

Personally, I agree. They have a paragon racial class, so I think a talent tree setup that emulates paragon racial levels should do so for all core races. However, BFGEditor has his reasons for not providing humans with one, which he has already stated. If you'd like to see one added for humans, please give your thoughts behind your words, for his consideration. It often helps in us making decisions if people provide detailed feedback to support their thoughts.

And perhaps I can help too by being more specific in explaining why humans don't get a talent path.

Basically, the UA human paragon class is so generic relative to the other paragons that the talents a human paragon based tree would make available would in most cases be indistinguishable from the talents any class would offer. Since the only way to progress in a racial talent path is to sacrifice class talents, there is no point in putting together a talent path that grants access to stuff you can already get. Instead, the ability to move more deeply into class talents sooner than other races is built into humans without the addition of a talent path, thus providing them with all the options they would obtain from a paragon class.

To help me see the point here, what is the impact of having a +2 higher modifier than normal in Strength at 20th level?

This is just my gut reaction, but I'm not sure this is a balance issue, I think it is a flavor issue. 3-18 are the normal human baseline ability score range-- so that, barring extraordinary circumstances, humans cannot exceed this. Other races can, but only in one specific score in which they are exceptional, at the cost of being less capable in another ability. At 4th level, achieving 19 in one score should be a big deal. But if you can have a 21 ability score at 4th level, that feels wrong-- you make the shift into superhuman a bit too quickly for my case. And, as you go up in levels, if you get stat-raising magic items, it is not just a matter of having a 26 or a 25-- it is a matter of having stats in the 30s. or, having two stats in the 30s instead of one.

And I am not interesting in making global changes to d20 Fantasy magic items. That seems like too drastic and time-consuming of an alteration.

But as I said, all of the above is just a gut reaction.

 

[Flynn]

This is just my gut reaction, but I'm not sure this is a balance issue, I think it is a flavor issue. 3-18 are the normal human baseline ability score range-- so that, barring extraordinary circumstances, humans cannot exceed this. Other races can, but only in one specific score in which they are exceptional, at the cost of being less capable in another ability. At 4th level, achieving 19 in one score should be a big deal. But if you can have a 21 ability score at 4th level, that feels wrong-- you make the shift into superhuman a bit too quickly for my case. And, as you go up in levels, if you get stat-raising magic items, it is not just a matter of having a 26 or a 25-- it is a matter of having stats in the 30s. or, having two stats in the 30s instead of one.

And I am not interesting in making global changes to d20 Fantasy magic items. That seems like too drastic and time-consuming of an alteration.

But as I said, all of the above is just a gut reaction.

I would agree with you. I think it is a flavor issue, since the stat is still below 20 in both cases without stat bumping devices. Balancing the system against Saga can be hard, because of the impact that equipment has in D20 Fantasy.

In the end, I don't care which way the bump issue goes, but I feel confident that two bumps will not break the system in terms of game mechanics and stat balance. If you use the RAW and roll 4d6, drop the lowest, you could end up with two 18s, which an elven fighter could end up with 20 in both Str and Dex by 8th level without any stat bumping devices at all, and the system still works. Based on that, having two 20s by 8th isn't broken at all. Therefore it is likely that this is going to be a flavor issue only. But whatever is decided should be applied across the board to all core races equally.

IMO, YMMV, of course.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Mokona]

If you'd like to see one added for humans, please give your thoughts behind your words, for his consideration.

Thanks for keeping me honest. Now that I have Unearthed Arcana in front of me I can give more detail.

In the D20 Modern Roleplaying Game characters can purchase two (2) Talents with one Feat: Strong Plus, Fast Plus, Tough Plus, Smart Plus, Dedicated Plus, and Charismatic Plus from D20 Future. This implies that one Talent is worth 1/2 of a Feat but I'm not sure I agree that those Feats are correctly balanced. A strong hero with Melee Smash (+1 damage) can pick up Improved and Advanced Melee Smash for the low low price of one Feat (for a total of +2 damage in addition to Melee Smash). That seems better than Weapon Specialization (a feat that also gives you +2 damage) because Melee Smash doesn't require you to limit its bonus to a single weapon.

Suppose elves can pick up a +2 Dexterity (or even Intelligence if you a trying to enable the elf wizard archetype) with the Species Talent Tree. There is no way for a human to replicate this bonus. A human also can't replicate the starting +2 Dexterity that elves receive. Hiitting humans with a second stat increase only available to non-humans is too much for me both on a gut check and by a numerical comparison.

Talents that grant +2 to one Ability Score are powerful enough that I'd feel unfairly punished if my human character couldn't get one. The argument that humans can more quickly advance in their chosen character class is nullified on its face because all species Talents are optional. Every species can chose their class Talents (instead of species Talents) in each situation where that is the (only) option open to a human.

Have we given humans an extra, use it anywhere, Talent slot that doesn't come from advancing in class levels?

 

[Mokona]

Elf and human paragons are almost identical. They get the same base attack bonus progression, the same saving throw progression (with different choices for good vs. poor saves), and the same spells per day progression. Human paragons get two (2) more skill points: 4 instead of 2 per level. Decide for yourself but I'd guess that Elfsight and Resist Enchantments are slightly better than treating an additional skill of your choice as a class skill.

The 2nd-level paragon elf bonus Feat (Weapon Focus) option is inferior on its face to the human ability to choose any Feat for which he qualifies. Is the human's flexibility 25% better than a fixed bonus Feat? 50% better? Perhaps the human option is worth a fixed Feat (like an elf's Weapon Focus) plus a Talent? This same question of how much better applies to elf and human paragons at third level.

The Elf Paragon receives a +2 Intelligence which is never better and sometimes worse (depending on your primary class) than the Human Paragon option to add +2 to any Ability Score.

Basically, the UA human paragon class is so generic relative to the other paragons that the talents a human paragon based tree would make available would in most cases be indistinguishable from the talents any class would offer.

Let me take a stab at The Human Paragon...

Humans get a bonus Feat and an additional trained Skill. Perhaps adaptive learning isn't that different. Adaptive Learning: Choose a skill from one of your class skill options. You become trained in that skill. This is the equivalent of a Feat (Skill Training) so perhaps it is too powerful. In that case perhaps humans could pick an Accustomed Skill with their optional species talent tree.

2nd Human species Talent would be Spontaneous Talent: Choose a Talent from a Heroic Class other than your current Class. You gain that Talent. You still must meet all requirements for that Talent (other than being a member of that Class). Requirements: Adaptive Learning

3rd Human species Talent: Increase one (1) Ability Score of your choice by two (2) points. Requirements: Adaptive Learning, Spontaneous Talent

 

[Gundark]

What are the plans to balance magic? Won't only giving one attack increase the damage output gap between spellcasters and fighter types?