Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Chris_Nightwing]

Can't you just use caster level? That's fairly well used already.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

.I understand the desire to keep things clean, and I agree, but to my mind any compromise we have to make for a skill to do the job is going to be a lot messier than something we can just stick on the same chart as BAB.

And realistically, given D&D's hyper-detailed spells per day charts and the number of Prestige Classes that add "+1 level of existing class", in some ways I think some kind of level-based magic stat is a long overdue fix for the existing Vancian system anyway.

At a certain point, simplification can lead to a lack of clarity. When something is an exception to the rule, sometimes it's better to flag it as such by calling it something else. It's sort of like the way old school d20 handles languages verses the Saga way. Rather that keeping it a skill (that doesn't work like any other skill), languages were basically given there own little "sub-system".

Between spell-casting being a skill that doesn't act like any other skill, and a "magical aptitude bonus", I would tend to favor the latter. There's even certain parallels one could draw on: (melee combat = BAB + str bonus), (missile combat = BAB + dex bonus), (arcane casting = MAB + int bonus), and (divine casting = MAB + wis bonus).

As an aside, what would be the effect of just saying that magical bonuses do not stack have on the escalating defense problem?

 

[EditorBFG]

Can't you just use caster level? That's fairly well used already.

I think caster level is essentially what we are talking about. It is just that, since there won't be a big sprawling class chart with a listing of spells per day/spells known, an entry for caster level would replace all that stuff and appear somewhere near BAB. But basically, yes, it would act as the die roll for beating defense that same as it does now for SR.

However, to scale with the saves, "caster level" (or whatever we call it) would have to be the highest level spell you can cast, not your total levels in a spellcasting class. So there is a difference, but the math makes it necessary.

 

[Mokona]

What do the rest of you think? Magic as skill? Magic as stat? Magic by spell slots and spell levels?

I want Use the Force [ed. Magic] but I'm not sure that it's possible within the constraints we've set for this project. Dungeons & Dragons uses Vancian spellcraft because it is, fundamentally, simpler. Using something Vancian would require less rework than the proposals described above. For the record, I don't like D&D spell slots per day because it leads to high-magic, utilitarian spellcasting.

Realistically I'd like to stick with "magic by spell slots and spell levels".

 

[EditorBFG]

For the record, I don't like D&D spell slots per day because it leads to high-magic, utilitarian spellcasting.

Realistically I'd like to stick with "magic by spell slots and spell levels".

You don't like spell slots, but you would rather use them than an approach closer to the Saga system you favor? I'm not sure I am reading your post right.

This way seems simpler-- no spell slots, you try to cast a spell whenever you want, but sometimes it doesn't work (much like defensive casting in D&D), and sometimes you fail to overcome the Defense (like SR in D&D).

 

[Gundark]

Just FYI if is this big announcement that WotC is making at Gen Con is about 4th edition, then it'll kill this project. At least will make it a lot less cool.

But yeah I know that when they announce 4th ed. it'll be at winter xp, not Gen Con.

 

[Mokona]

You don't like spell slots, but you would rather use them than an approach closer to the Saga system you favor?

Sometimes reality doesn't submit itself to my will. But I'm not so foolish as to insist that what I want is optimal in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I'd like a good solution to magic that is simple and isn't Vancian but so far it doesn't look possible given the short timeline for this project. :\

 

[EditorBFG]

Just FYI if is this big announcement that WotC is making at Gen Con is about 4th edition, then it'll kill this project. At least will make it a lot less cool.

If WotC decides to kill the goose this year, I'll have a lot more game-writing problems than just this project.

I'd like a good solution to magic that is simple and isn't Vancian but so far it doesn't look possible given the short timeline for this project.

I take it you don't find what we've been proposing to be "a good solution to magic that is simple". Hopefully, you don't think ripping off the Force or using D&D as is should be our only two options.

 

[Baduin]

I would suggest keeping a single Magic bonus both for divine and arcane magic. Otherways, any divine/arcane multiclassing will be as clunky as in D&D 3.5. You can make them different using different Talent trees, spell lists etc.

 

[Flynn]

I've been thinking about it, and the "Magic as Stat" approach works well, especially since there are skill enhancing spells out there. We can give the same progression to the MAB as we do to the Defenses, and so they can walk in tandem, so to speak. This also allows the game to scale beyond 20th level easily, for those that desire to take on an Epic Fantasy Concepts game.

Okay, you've won me over. MAB, it is.

With that, I can't think of any reservations against moving Defense progression to half character level. Can anyone else?

With Regards,
Flynn