Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Flynn]

Advanced and Prestige Classes

Here's something that no one has posted much about as yet: Advanced and Prestige classes.

Following the Saga guidelines, Advanced classes are not available until 7th character level, and Prestige classes are not available until 12th character level. Generally, I have to admit that I'm not a fan of advanced and prestige classes, unless they are bound to the milieu and the setting. However, as our inspiration for this project has a few of these special classes (and they fit very well with the Star Wars milieu), it makes sense to at least consider such classes for inclusion in the Fantasy Concepts project.

I would imagine that each of the core classes would need at least two advanced classes they can move into, if the player so desires, and some of these classes progress naturally into prestige classes as appropriate. Making sure that all the bases are covered, not just the obvious ones, might potentially be a challenge.

First question, though: Are advanced and prestige classes needed for the game?

If so, what would you suggest? Please offer suggestions associated with the base class roles you see them deriving from, as that will help everyone see your thought progression. For prestige classes, I'd like to see the base class(es) and advanced class(es) through which characters might advance to get to the prestige class, again to see the thought process of character development.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'm not a fan of Advanced and prestige classes, though I must admit they fit well within the SW mllieu. IF we include them in Fantasy Concepts, I think classes like Paladin, Ranger,Bard are obivious (see unearthed arcana). Also Archwizard (Jedi master) and Sorceror (Sith Lord) are viable.

However, I would just prefer Talent Trees that have certain prerequisites

 

[Cam Banks]

SWSE has advanced classes? I thought all of them were prestige classes!

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

This may turn into a long post

Hey again Flynn, I've been following the thread with interest and thought I'd voice my thoughts!

I'm not particularly interested in using all aspects of the Saga system to create a fantasy game. In particular, when taking a typical D&D game as a starting point, some aspects of it would not fit, such as using the same statistic for reflex saves and defense/AC - classically it's the warriors with the AC and the rogues who avoid taking area of effect damage and such. Similarly we mustn't forget that the skill system in Saga is designed with Star Wars cinematic-type situations in mind and so for a more D&D-esque game it will need adjustment.

Wizards have obviously been experimenting (and probably watching threads like this) carefully with other systems since they more or less finished everything they could do with basic 3.5e. We've seen d20 Modern, which has some excellent concepts, a bunch of different magic systems, fighting styles and that sort of thing from complete books, and now Saga. If they're working on 4e, which they ought to be, they'll be combining everything they've seen and heard about from the community over the years. It wouldn't surprise me if something that either Flynn or BFG create is a nice precursor to the official system. I don't want to put you guys off, but if you're thinking commericially, consider your payoffs as well as legalities!

Now for the crunchy bits! With regards to classes, I think you have to go with a 4 or 6 class system. 4 classes provides a warrior, a rogue (including all the charismatic stuff), a mage and a priest or holy type (priest doesn't sound right, there must be a more generic name). A bit like the old 2e class sets. 6 classes would be more the stat-based d20 Modern point of view, I guess with constitution representing the wilderness type abilities (barbarian, ranger, druid). Within those classes you need talent trees to cover most of the 3.5e abilities that currently exist. Don't be afraid to get rid of some, or make some into feats, or move some feats into talents, or just make up entirely new ones that still fit an archetype of the class. Also consider that sticking the talent/feat/repeat advancement doesn't work well if you make +1d6 sneak attack a talent, so why not key it to something (class level, base attack bonus, defense bonus, whatever) and have it advance to some level as the character does. This works nicely for spellcasting, as you can make a talent tree which is 'cast levels 1-3', 'cast levels 4-6' and cast levels '7-9' (or split that to 7-8 and 9 if you feel). The only challenge I've found in thinking in these terms is deciding how an ability will advance, to what level before another talent is needed and whether it's horribly exploitable.

With regards to the magic system, Vancian all the way baby. It allows for wonderful resource management, gives you quirky individual spells and provided you balance spells in a given level, provably works. As for prestige/advanced classes, yes, they're needed. However, I don't think they should be necessary. Make your base classes span 20 levels, with high level generic talents (high-level spells, extra attacks, amazing healing or domain abilities, assassination etc..). Then advanced classes can represent something specific, paladins, rangers, bards, for instance, a bit like the old days there. Prestige classes really should be annoying to qualify for but have decent abilities for the trade-off, so archmage, hierophant, etc.

I've got about a dozen more ideas. If it wasn't for a full time (well, more than full-time really) job, I'd have made my own complete version about a year ago. Instead I'll pester you guys . If I don't sound like a madman and you're interested in my thoughts, then do email me! Sneak previews - making PCs harder to kill outright with a small easy fix, fixing healing/resurrection so it doesn't, well, suck, separating racial abilities into inherent and background (dwarf raised by elves anyone?) as well as other suitable backgrounds which give players customised skills and feats to begin with, wizards who have more to do than shoot a crossbow at 1st level, a narrowed skill set from 3.5e and caster levels even when you're not levelling up as a caster (shock horror, no 500 prestige classes to cover every combination of 2 spellcasting classes).

One more thing. From an obssessive compulsive point of view, and just because it's neat, do everything in threes. Ability, improved, greater, it's worked so far, it looks good in d20 Modern and I just darned like it!

 

[Flynn]

SWSE has advanced classes? I thought all of them were prestige classes!

Cheers,
Cam

Perhaps I should review my SECR when I get home. I do remember that there are 10-level classes that start at 7th level. There are also 5-level classes that start at 12th. In D20 Modern, we used to call those "advanced" and "prestige" classes. Are they all called prestige classes now? If anyone has the book handy, would you mind checking right quick for us?

Thanks,
Flynn

 

[Flynn]

Hey again Flynn, I've been following the thread with interest and thought I'd voice my thoughts!

I didn't want to fill up most of my post by quoting yours, Chris, but I wanted to say thanks for posting. There are definitely some interesting points you've brought up in regards to the system, and I'll have to ponder them for a bit.

Thanks, All, For Your Enthusiasm And Support,
Flynn

 

[Baron Opal]

I'm not particularly interested in using all aspects of the Saga system to create a fantasy game. In particular, when taking a typical D&D game as a starting point, some aspects of it would not fit, such as using the same statistic for reflex saves and defense/AC - classically it's the warriors with the AC and the rogues who avoid taking area of effect damage and such.

I agree with you here, but I really like the elegance of reflex and AC being combined. One thing I noticed at the SWSE system is that, at high level, only soldiers are going to wear armor; everyone else is going to have the same "AC" give or take a dex mod. This doesn't quite sit well with me for a fantasy game. Giving every one a defense bonus equal to BAB rather than level I believe would be better suited. But then, our reflex saves are hampered and we lose the elegance of using a combined AC and reflex for our fireballs.

 

[Shane_Leahy]

For advanced Classes and such...

Go old school.

Knight, Avenger, Paladin
Druid

Those are the ones off the top of my head from older versions of D&D. You had to be a certain level fighter before you could become a paladin.

 

[Baron Opal]

If we do tie AC to a save, why does it have to be reflex? Could not a warrior trained in how to deflect and absorb blow with his armor use fortitude defense? Would a wizard with powers eldritch and dire not have some ward that protects him with his will defense?

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Saga-ized version of Elements of Magic. Start with a feat called "The Gift" (a free feat for Wizards and Clerics), which lets the character do cantrip level magic, have access to spell list talents, and adds the various effect skills to the their class skill list. One could then spend feats on skill training and skill focus, which depending on the effect would be on the wizard or clerics bonus feat list, other classes would have to use general feats.