Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[Mokona]

Skill Lists

Star Wars Saga Edition skill groups (23; including 7 knowledge specialties)

Acrobatics, Climb, Deception, Endurance, Gather Information, Initiative, Jump, Perception, Persuasion, Pilot, Ride, Stealth, Survival, Swim, Treat Injury, Use Computer, and
Knowledge
• Bureaucracy
• Galactic Lore
• Life Sciences
• Physical Sciences
• Social Sciences
• Tactics
• Technology

I’ll ignore the craft, perform, and profession specialties…

Dungeons & Dragons skills (45; including 10 knowledge specialties)
D20 Modern skills (54; including 14 knowledge specialties)
Call of Cthulhu d20 skills (68; including 24 knowledge specialties)
Wheel of Time d20 skills (46; including 9 knowledge specialties)

Oriental Adventures (1 new skill: Iaijutsu Focus) and other similar campaign setting materials add a skill to D&D once in a while. Our system should be prepared to handle this.

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Currently I'm running a typical D&D game using character classes and advanced classes from D20 Modern and its supplements. Converting the skills over to a non-modern version and deciding what class got which skills turned out to be too much work. Instead I just deleted clearly modern skills (which is neither systematic nor probably fair to some classes).

D20 Modern skills (both in name and scope) are a poor fit for Dungeons & Dragons games. I didn't feel that D20 Past was much help in this regard.

How should we rewrite the Saga skill groups to better distribute the types of skill checks and themes that are appropriate for a fantasy game? I'm not sure the best allocation but I would keep the same total number of skills as Star Wars with perhaps one (1) fewer knowledge specialty.

 

[Mokona]

Knowledge

I suggest the following Knowledge specialties...

1. Mysticism (cults, religions, magic, miracles, the supernatural, and the planes)

2. History (wars, legends, mysteries, lore, tactics)

3. Civilization (nations, peoples, cities, geography of the populated world, high society)

4. Animalia (animals, nature, non-humanoids other than magical beings)

5. Craftwork (crafts, machines, artistry, architecture, buildings, fortifications, dungeons)

And the more I think about knowledge checks perhaps instead of having a biology knowledge instead use Treat Injury checks for knowledge (humanoid) biology. I'm often annoyed at the fuzzy line between knowledge (nature) and survival checks.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Star Wars Saga Edition skill groups (23; including 7 knowledge specialties)...

...How should we rewrite the Saga skill groups to better distribute the types of skill checks and themes that are appropriate for a fantasy game? I'm not sure the best allocation but I would keep the same total number of skills as Star Wars with perhaps one (1) fewer knowledge specialty.

I thought about this quite a bit. I narrowed the skillset down to 23, but then read some Saga rules and decided it could go slimmer. My final 20 would be:

Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft* (Int), Deception (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge* (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform* (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession* (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

I'm sure some people don't like the separation of Climb, Jump and Swim, but they are distinct forms of movement in reality and D&D. Similarly I kept Intimidate because when it comes to interaction with someone you can deceive, persuade or just force them to do what you want. Open Lock is in Disable Device for anyone wondering, I couldn't think of a more generic name that still sounded suitably fantastical. Profession is a really important skill for NPCs, and I'd love rules that increase your starting gold for being trained in it at first level. Perform is obviously needed in D&D for bardly aspects, and people generally enjoy singing in taverns . Linguistics covers Decipher Script as well as giving you a new language every so often (every +2 bonus you have to the skill perhaps, and make skill checks at a penalty for languages you don't know). Use Magic Device is absorbed into Spellcraft, but you need a feat to unlock its juicy powers.

 

[Flynn]

I thought about this quite a bit. I narrowed the skillset down to 23, but then read some Saga rules and decided it could go slimmer. My final 20 would be:

Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft* (Int), Deception (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge* (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform* (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession* (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

I'm sure some people don't like the separation of Climb, Jump and Swim, but they are distinct forms of movement in reality and D&D. Similarly I kept Intimidate because when it comes to interaction with someone you can deceive, persuade or just force them to do what you want. Open Lock is in Disable Device for anyone wondering, I couldn't think of a more generic name that still sounded suitably fantastical. Profession is a really important skill for NPCs, and I'd love rules that increase your starting gold for being trained in it at first level. Perform is obviously needed in D&D for bardly aspects, and people generally enjoy singing in taverns . Linguistics covers Decipher Script as well as giving you a new language every so often (every +2 bonus you have to the skill perhaps, and make skill checks at a penalty for languages you don't know). Use Magic Device is absorbed into Spellcraft, but you need a feat to unlock its juicy powers.

In many regards, your list is very close to the one I've come up with myself. There are a few Saga tropes that might change a few things, but expect something similar in the final product.

Thanks for sharing,
Flynn

 

[Dalamar]

I don't mind Craft as I can see a point to having it, but I really don't think Profession and Perform are important enough to warrant their own skills.

For Profession, I'd take a cue from True20 and make characters choose one of their skills as a "profession skill" that they use make a living. So a pick pocket would use Stealth, a wilderness guide Survival, a healer Heal (personally, I like the sound of Treat Injury better), and so on. Not sure what a pirate would use, but that's a minor point.

Regarding Knowledge specialties, I would go for the same as SW Saga uses but renamed to fit the flavor of DnD (Technology becomes Artifice or even Arcana, and so on).

 

[Kunimatyu]

Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft* (Int), Deception (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge* (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform* (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession* (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

My list would be 17 skills:
Acrobatics(Dex)
Athletics(Str)
Concentration(Wis)
Craft(Wis)
Deception(Cha)
Disable Device(Int)
Endurance(Con)
Heal(Wis)
Initiative(Dex)
Knowledge*(Int)
Perception(
Perform
Persuasion
Pilot/Ride*
Stealth
Survival
Swim

Acrobatics is Climb+Jump (not swim, b/c of the math involved with armor check).
Intimidate is a part of Persuasion (it's a way to persuade).
Linguistics is folded into the Knowledges.
Spellcraft is folded into Knowledge(arcana).
Endurance and Initiative are their own skills.
Ride is expanded to Ride/Pilot, for ships/airships, but has to be taken indiviudally like a Knowledge.
Profession is handled by each class choosing a "professional skill" - a rogue might choose Stealth, a mage might choose a Knowledge, etc etc.

 

[Mokona]

Skill Ideas

Random skill ideas...that I haven't seen above.

Boating
Drive (pilot wagons)
Evaluate (appraise)
Sing
Artistic Expression
Courtesy
Dance
Engineering
Mechanisms
Play Instrument
Shiphandling
Streetwise (instead of Gather Information)

The number of skills which need to be covered explode if you have Craft, Perform, and Profession specialties or if you have too many Knowledge specialties like in D&D. If we increase the number of skills available beyond Saga then we'd need to give each class one (1) or more extra skills at 1st level. You want players to have access to most available skills if the party is well rounded (though certainly not all skills).

We need a "mechanical" aptitude skill that probably includes engineering, building fortifications, craft, and disable device.

 

[Baron Opal]

I would use Athletics as a combination of Climb, Jump and short term exertion much like Endurance is for long term exertion. I think that swimming is sufficiently different as a form of locomotion that it should have its own skill. I could accept it as part of athletics, however. Given the different things that Acrobatics is used for, I think that Athletics could be used for a similarly wide range of skills.

I dislike Profession as a skill, and I tend to use Craft and Knowledge to represent NPC talents. Profession is too undefined for my tastes. I would like Craft and Knowledge to have a specific list of options, but that can lead to an increadably long list.

 

[Lackhand]

... I think I am coming around to the idea of advanced classes (available around level 3) and Prestige Classes (available around 7th and higher) being a big part of the game.

That said, I also think the base classes themselves should be few, and separated by mechanics (good attack bonus, good skill guy, good saves, or good caster) rather than flavor. The flavor should come from the talents. Advanced classes should be mechanically better, but not much, and easy to qualify for. Prestige classes ought to be tough, though, and specific rather than generic (Paladin=Advanced Class, Knight of the Round Table=Prestige Class). Every base class ought to have at least one Advanced Class it can achieve with no multiclassing at all.

This sounds right up my alley -- except, possibly, for the 'mechanically better' bit. If they're mechanically better, and more interesting, doesn't that imply that players should jump ship away from the base classes as soon as they can?

And if that's true, doesn't that mean that the base classes shouldn't really go beyond 3rd level?
After all, by that point any character worth his or her salt will have chosen some niche, essentially. And that means that they have an advanced class waiting for them, either in the book, or made up with the DM to better model their characters.

I'm all for encouraging strong archetyping and niches via laziness, but this just feels... unnecessary. I suppose any sort of specialization represents a mechanical advantage, because one can adapt for the lack in breadth via the classical "sole possession:hammer, visually perceive all problems:nails" maneuver. But I get the feeling that's not what you mean by mechanically better. Maybe it is.

(I'm envisioning a trio of equal-level warriors in a bar:
"I'm a paladin!", the first doughty fellow exclaims.
"I'm a weapon-master, and I find your exclamation of identity odd, and out of place!", the second fellow replies, scratching idly at a jagged scar across his mighty thews.
"I'm a soldier!" the third desperately cries, to the sound of crickets. Eventually, the paladin lays a hand, not unkindly, on his shoulder:
"No, lad. You're an NPC.")

Just wondering why this is good.

 

[Flynn]

By definition in Saga, all prestige classes that start at 7th character level have a total of +6 on defenses, in +2/+4 increments. All prestige classes that start at 12th character level have a total of +9 on defenses, in +3/+6 increments. I would expect to see something like that in the way of class-based defense bonuses in the Advanced and Prestige classes that are in Fantasy Concepts. Base classes build to Advanced classes (which would probably include the more specialized classes of standard OGL fantasy), which in turn build to the Prestige classes.

Further analysis of the Saga classes will likely reveal other relationships that we will keep in mind as we move forward with our work, such as higher BABs being tied to lower Starting Skills (for base classes), and that kind of thing.

Quick Analysis of tendencies in Saga for such classes:

Advanced Classes (7th level)
Prerequisites: 1-2 talents, 1-2 trained skills, sometimes limited feat requirements, 7th level
Defense Bonuses: Total +6, in +2/+4 increments.
10 levels: Alternating talent and class-related special bonus, or talent every level progression
Two talent trees

Prestige Classes (12th level)
Prerequisites: 1-2 talents from advanced classes, feat requirements, 12th level
Defense Bonuses: Total +9, in +3/+6 increments.
5 levels: 2 special abilities at 1st level, Talent on odd levels (1st, 3rd, 5th) from other talent trees, class-related special bonus every level
No unique talent trees

With Regards,
Flynn