Fantasy Concepts: An OGL Fantasy Saga Project

[drothgery]

By definition in Saga, all prestige classes that start at 7th character level have a total of +6 on defenses, in +2/+4 increments. All prestige classes that start at 12th character level have a total of +9 on defenses, in +3/+6 increments.

That's not quite true; Force Adept has a total of +8, and Force Disciple +12. Also worth noting is that Crime Lord breaks the standard Saga PrC pattern of talent/class feature alternating in favor of a talent every level. And the Jedi and Sith PrCs give three equal defense bonuses instead of one (relatively) high bonus and one (relatively) low bonus.

Also FWIW, the two-tiered PrC model of Saga is only used for Force users; there aren't any second-teir PrCs for 'normals'. And it's only there because the metamagic feat-equivalent Force Secrets in Star Wars are only the province of highly skilled weilders of the Force. In a D&D-esque sending, where 'pure casters' (whether mages, priests, or psions) are much more common and content to rely on their powers nearly to the exclusion of weapons, I'd be inclined to move those features into 'magic talents' and make them available from low levels, or at least to unify 'magic techniques' and 'magic secrets' into one mechanic.

 

[Flynn]

That's not quite true; Force Adept has a total of +8, and Force Disciple +12. Also worth noting is that Crime Lord breaks the standard Saga PrC pattern of talent/class feature alternating in favor of a talent every level. And the Jedi and Sith PrCs give three equal defense bonuses instead of one (relatively) high bonus and one (relatively) low bonus.

Good observation. Still, there is a general trend, and I'm okay with three of the lower increments instead of one upper and one lower increment on defense bonuses. I do think this pattern should be followed, when possible, just for the sake of consistency.

Also FWIW, the two-tiered PrC model of Saga is only used for Force users; there aren't any second-teir PrCs for 'normals'. And it's only there because the metamagic feat-equivalent Force Secrets in Star Wars are only the province of highly skilled weilders of the Force. In a D&D-esque sending, where 'pure casters' (whether mages, priests, or psions) are much more common and content to rely on their powers nearly to the exclusion of weapons, I'd be inclined to move those features into 'magic talents' and make them available from low levels, or at least to unify 'magic techniques' and 'magic secrets' into one mechanic.

In regards to the second-tier PrCs being tied only to the "powers" of the game, I agree. It is likely that, should they be included in a core product, the second tiers would likely be things like Archmage and Hierophant. That makes sense.

In regards to the magic system, I still have no desire to create a magic system that has secrets and techniques and all that jazz. The current direction we're looking at works well for me. The spirit of your point is definitely a good thing for us to keep in mind, though.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Mokona]

Character Race

Should we convert OGL Dungeons & Dragons races with as few changes as possible? Or should we rebuild them completely in the style of Saga?

Any other besides...

Dwarf, elf, orc (I suppose I should mean half-orc), halfling, gnome, and half-elf?

 

[Flynn]

Should we convert OGL Dungeons & Dragons races with as few changes as possible? Or should we rebuild them completely in the style of Saga?

Any other besides...

Dwarf, elf, orc (I suppose I should mean half-orc), halfling, gnome, and half-elf?

In my opinion, we should convert the races in a manner compatible with a Saga like approach, and refrain from adding any more races to the mix. I'm sure that someone could write a race supplement for Fantasy Concepts, if they so desired, to add more races to the mix. I think our intent is to create a free license of sorts similar in style and substance to that used by OSRIC, but truth be told, the jury is still out on that one. However, it is being discussed.

Out of curiosity, how would you go about doing so? I've seen a number of efforts online as part of my research for this project, but I'm always interested in how others would tackle the same challenge.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Well I finally have my copy of Saga to compare and contrast. Some early thoughts:

I definitely prefer defined 'defense' or 'save' progressions to the flat +1 per level plus whatever you started with at 1st level. I also think that D&D is more suited to multiclassing, so gaining no new trained skills when levelling in a new class would be a bit harsh.

I love some of the talents, which could be copied across for D&D easily. The skill system is great, but needs re-jigging a bit for a fantasy setting. I'm still not sure about the HP vs. condition track thing. I think it could be quite good in play, or it could act as bad positive feedback (ie: PCs are losing, and their chances get worse and worse). Anything that makes it harder to die is good, so lots of HP at first level is excellent.

Directly responding to Mokona - the SW races are very well done. Exceptionally simple. We need that for D&D. Especially love the rerolling of certain checks based on inherent racial ability. Also the rarity of things that would be nurture rather than nature (like bonuses to hit certain creatures) which always cause reincarnation arguments.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Heh - and in direct reply to Flynn:

When I first thought about this I was going to use the d20 Modern background system to smooth out the D&D races directly (and also throw in interesting ways of customising your character at 1st level). For instance, Elves would have their stat modifiers, immunity to sleep and their bonuses to perceptive skills and enchantment saves inherently, but to get the full package you'd need the 'raised by elves' background for the weapon proficiencies and training in a suitable skill from a racial selection.

I think this would still be a nice way to do things, especially as it removes weapon and armor proficiencies from the classes themselves (always a pain when getting a level of fighter for all weapon and armor profs.). Either way however, I'd remove cultural artefacts from the racial packages and simplify them:

Humans: Good ol' humans, leave them be!
Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Cha, Medium, Darkvision, 20ft move, +2 fortitude and reroll checks involving being knocked over
Elves: +2 Dex, -2 Con, Medium, Low-light vision, 30ft move, Immune to sleep, +2 will, reroll perception checks
Gnomes: +2 Con, -2 Str, Small, Low-light vision, 20ft move, 0th level arcane spell-like ability 1+Cha/day, reroll concentration checks (this is old style gnomes who are dedicated and magical, single-minded if you will, none of that bard nonsense)
Halflings: +2 Dex, -2 Str, Small, 20ft move, +1 all defenses, reroll acrobatics checks (and/or climb, jump, couldn't really decide, acrobatics seems best)
Half-Elves: Medium, 30ft move, low-light vision +1 will, reroll persuasion checks (god they still kinda suck, maybe throw in an extra trained skill from human heritage?)
Half-Orcs: +2 Str, -2 int, -2 Cha, Medium, 30ft move, darkvision, reroll intimidate (maybe?)

 

[Flynn]

I'm still not sure about the HP vs. condition track thing. I think it could be quite good in play, or it could act as bad positive feedback (ie: PCs are losing, and their chances get worse and worse).

I think that, if you wanted, you could optionally and probably safely drop the Threshold vs Condition Track in your combats, and still be okay using Condition Tracks to replace all those extra conditions that have sprung up in 3E and v3.5. I think it needs to be in the Fantasy Concepts project, but all told, what you do with it once it's in your hands is up to you.

Directly responding to Mokona - the SW races are very well done. Exceptionally simple. We need that for D&D. Especially love the rerolling of certain checks based on inherent racial ability. Also the rarity of things that would be nurture rather than nature (like bonuses to hit certain creatures) which always cause reincarnation arguments.

I definitely like the streamlined nature of the SW races. My partner in crime, so to speak, also has some interesting thoughts in that direction, as well as racial paragons.

Here's a problem with removing the cultural aspects of the races: tradition. There are certain things that people expect from their fantasy races, and for some, it includes these cultural abilities.

Now, if you could pack a few of these into feats, perhaps no more than one feat per race, and then offer each character a free bonus feat at first level that is spent on some kind of cultural background feat, then that would be cool. However, I'm not sure it could be done, at least very easily, and still be balanced across the board between races. What do you think?

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

It would definitely be difficult to give all the non-human and non-half races an extra feat and keep things balanced. That's sort of why I like the background system - it lets you do this evenly, customise a character and remove instances of '.. but only at first level' phrases occuring in multiclassing rules. OTOH you pretty much have to do that when it comes to multiclass skills, so I guess it's not much more effort to do it with weapon/armour proficiencies.

So perhaps if you can justify letting humans and halfbreeds have some bonus background feats too, it could work.

 

[Baron Opal]

Now, if you could pack a few of these into feats, perhaps no more than one feat per race, and then offer each character a free bonus feat at first level that is spent on some kind of cultural background feat, then that would be cool. However, I'm not sure it could be done, at least very easily, and still be balanced across the board between races. What do you think?

I think that would be perfect for the racial prestige classes (paragon?). If you want to be more elvish, take levels in this 3 level class and you can be as elfly as you want.

 

[EditorBFG]

When I first thought about this I was going to use the d20 Modern background system to smooth out the D&D races directly (and also throw in interesting ways of customising your character at 1st level). For instance, Elves would have their stat modifiers, immunity to sleep and their bonuses to perceptive skills and enchantment saves inherently, but to get the full package you'd need the 'raised by elves' background for the weapon proficiencies and training in a suitable skill from a racial selection.

Now that is interesting. I think I will look at the Modern SRD's occupations and see what we might be able to take. Normally, occupations give you an extra class skill or skill bonus, and maybe a feat, but maybe we could apply the concept differently.

Hmm.