Sorcica said:
No offense, but playing LA races isn't really core, IMO. It's more of an optional rule in the DMG. Should we spend our energy looking at LA races, or at the core races?
The reason this all began was because, when I started doing racial talents, I realized they could eliminate L.A., so I decided to work up one L.A. race (planetouched) to test the theory, and I posted it. It was just an intellectual exercise, but now that it is out there it does seem worthwhile to figure out how to do it right, because it will affect the philosophy behind race design in general.
Also, there will be some attempt to merge L.A. subraces (drow, duergar, svirfneblin, etc.) into the core race via talents.
That said, I do not think we need more non-core races at this point beyond the ones we have. I will state that it is likely orc will be included as a core race, because of the way the half-orc race will work.
Dalamar said:
Talents need to be roughly equal in power, just like races need to balance against each other. The only way one should have a stronger talent would be if the base race was weaker, and the talent was then bringing the race to balance with the other races, or if the talent required another talent that was generally weaker than other talents so that the two talents together were roughly worth the two talent picks used.
If a talent is stronger than other talents, people will choose it over other talents. If it is a racial talent, the only thing it does is limit it to that race; it does not become a weaker choice by being limited to a race that is balanced with other races.
I do agree that the base racial talent each race receives at 1st level needs to balance with other base racial talents. What I meant is they do not need to balance with class talents. Now, talents farther up the path should be roughly equivalent to class talents, because there is a choice, but the base talent automatically given to each race can be more powerful than others.
But as you say, each race's base talent must scale with the others, otherwise the races with weaker base talents won't get played.
Mokona said:
I would be perfectly happy with basic races converted to Saga in the simplest method possible but that doesn't look like what is going to happen.
And there are a couple reasons for that.
First of all, I think giving every race a talent, a feat, and a skill schtick is a simplification in line with the philosophy behind saga. Since we will not be able to convert every race out there, we are creating a simple model for those who want to port over their favorites.
Second, races in the SRD are very different from Star Wars species. For example, no alien race ever published for any d20 Star Wars book looks like this:
The Hypertext SRD said:
DWARF
# +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
# Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
# Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
# Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
# Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
# Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
# Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
# +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
# +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
# +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
# +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
# +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
# +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
That is a lot of stuff. So we have to get creative to convert with any degree of faithfulness, even as we attempt to simplify.
Third, the Star Wars species do not have the archetypal depth of the D&D races. Elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. have long-standing subraces, cultural nuances, interrelations, etc., all of which give them far greater substance and intricacy than wookiees and rodian. Racial talents allow us to honor these things in a way that is unified and elegant, rather than having the bevy of extra special rules and exceptions other d20 games would require to accomplish the like.
I tried to guide the discussion towards races a bit because I was working on that part, but obviously you guys are free to move on to other stuff if you thinking I'm bogging us down in minutia at this point.
Sorcica said:
I hate the 'some feats are weaker than others so that they can be used as Req for PrC's or as access to better feats' mentality of 3.X with the fire of a thousand suns!
I absolutely agree, but when we try to fix this mentality we probably want to do so in a way that does not wander to far from the core. For example, I want to use Spycraft's version of the Dodge feat, which works something like this:
Dodge [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: During your action, you may designate a single opponent and receive a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent, or you can choose to receive a +1 dodge bonus against all opponents. You can choose which bonus to receive, or designate a new opponent for the more specific bonus, on any action.
This version makes the feat more attractive, but also maintains the "Dodge buddy" choice that other 3rd party and Core feats have built upon. I think this is the kind of philosophy that should be used to "improve" any weak core feats.
of demonic heritage but "only" Tieflings have a strong enough blood connection to increase that link.
