Fantasy World Economics

Very cool thread.

On to the quibbles. ;)

I'll note that clerics and bards can also make magic items, and I would certainly expect clerics to make magic arms and armor.

Also, the adventuring party will make a lot of its money from the kingdom itself (pay and rewards for clearing out monsters, etc), so it isn't always beneficial to the local economy. In fact, some adventuring parties could clear out (in fees taken) a year's worth of accumulated wealth from a small settlement.

Imagine what happens if the prince (taking a slew of +2 and +3 items, plus some misc magic) and his buddies (similar stature, similarly equiped) head off for adventure and get killed? A generation's magic equipment can end up in somebody's cave!

PS
 

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So how do we explain the treasure glut that occurs if the world follows the guidelines of the DMG? I mean, normally four friends get together and hunt down a dangerous baby dragon that's been trying to gather a hoard. Somehow this CR 1 dragon has 300 gp worth of stuff. The four friends are very rich if they win, but some of them might die.

So instead, three villages gather eight strong men and women, a mage who can shoot magic missile, and the three town clerics, and they go and fight the dragon. Suddenly each person has made 25 gold pieces, more than they would otherwise make in a year.

Where do the monsters get the treasure? Why aren't they already dead from having hundreds of people hunt them down and take their stuff?
 

RangerWickett said:
So how do we explain the treasure glut that occurs if the world follows the guidelines of the DMG? I mean, normally four friends get together and hunt down a dangerous baby dragon that's been trying to gather a hoard. Somehow this CR 1 dragon has 300 gp worth of stuff. The four friends are very rich if they win, but some of them might die.

So instead, three villages gather eight strong men and women, a mage who can shoot magic missile, and the three town clerics, and they go and fight the dragon. Suddenly each person has made 25 gold pieces, more than they would otherwise make in a year.

Where do the monsters get the treasure? Why aren't they already dead from having hundreds of people hunt them down and take their stuff?

Good point. Enter the marauding dragon that lives nearby. It raids the countryside and takes what it wants back to the "cave". The villagers aren't tough enough to do anything about it, so they just have to sit there and like it. Maybe the dragon has swallowed up the other little monsters in the region. Why wouldn't it. Plus you have the left over wealth of those who have already tried to take out the dragon. Plus that of those who tried to take out the smaller monsters and got killed doing (i've had players get killed or run off by creatures they were darned well supposed to wipe out leaving treasure/equipment behind), which the big dragon then takes back to the cave as well.

i know.....that answer doesn't fully satisfy me either. :)
 

painandgreed said:
Okay, anybody still with me?

I am. I'm enjoying it too. :)

painandgreed said:
Let's say our party hadn't taken over the other kingdom but wanted to. They decide to raise and army and march it into the other kingdom. They get a force comparable tot he other kingdom's of 10,000 infantry, 5,000 calvary, and 150 leaders, all mercenary. Pay according to the DMG p. 105, assuming double cost for danger of war, will be 8,180 GP/day in wages. Feeding the army will also be another 2,400 GP/day for all the men and horses. Assuming you can march the army there in a very quick two weeks, then the party is out almost 150,000 GP before the battle has even been fought. This doesn't take into account arms and armor for the army (or horses) which must be bought for such hirelings. Those will easily be over a million GP. they could probalby cut that in half by hireing blacksmiths and such to make the weapons and armor rather than buying them. There are also untold other costs such as wagons that have to carry all the food to feed your army and such. If the war drags on more than two months, then the party is going to have to sell some magic items or call the entire thing off.

But how big would the surrounding kingdoms need to be to get that many mercenaries? 15,150 is a lot of people to find in kingdoms like these, isn't it?
Without crippling tht population, i don't see how it is possible. It would have to be a world wide call out to mercenaries or something, wouldn't it?
 

Alexander the Great marched with armies of hundreds of thousands. Hell, if Hollywood can hire 3000 actors to play warriors in one battle in Braveheart, I think nations could muster as much or better in times of war.
 

RangerWickett said:
Alexander the Great marched with armies of hundreds of thousands. Hell, if Hollywood can hire 3000 actors to play warriors in one battle in Braveheart, I think nations could muster as much or better in times of war.

I assumed that he meant mercenaries as in trained pros, rather than peasent armies pressed into action by their king.

I just got done watching a 3 hour discovery channel show about Alexander the Great and they said his army was 40,000 men and that he was the greatest military leader ever because he constantly defeated armies up to 10 times bigger than himself and take such drastically low losses to his own army. Hunh.
Regardless, Greece and its cities and Persia are way bigger than the numbers Painandgreed were using for his kingdom, so i just wanted to know where that army of 15000 soldiers came from.

Basically it was an excuse for him to do more intriguing math figures based off the DMG that i am enjoying so much. :)
 

Spanish Conquistador Model of Adventuring

painandgreed said:
Depending on how much money can usually be brought back by PCs from adventuring, it might be profitable for nobles to fund adventuring parties for a cut of the loot. Not to mention that they'd surely tax such loot. Clearing out that abandoned keep? Its on the lord's land and technically all treasure in it is his. He'll let adventurers keep half for recovering it for him. Death and taxes.
That's the Spanish conquistador model of adventuring. One fifth of all loot was set aside as the quinto, or king's fifth. And "adventures" were funded by government officials. From Conquistadors in the Old and New Worlds:
Towards the end of 1518 that opportunity finally presented itself. In 1517 and again in the early part of 1518 two voyages, funded by the governor Velasquez, had been made to the Yucatan Peninsula from the western end of Cuba. The Cordoba expedition brought back gold and idols and tales of large towns with sophisticated Indian populations. This was enough to suggest that in the Yucatan lay the wealth the conquistadors had been dreaming of since the days of Columbus. Velasquez immediately sent another expedition under the command of Juan de Grijalva which discovered the island of Cozumel and sailed up the Gulf Coast of Mexico almost as far as the modern port of Vera Cruz. Grijalva had opened the door to Mexico but it was Cortes who was to claim it.

On October 23, 1518 an agreement was signed between Velasquezand Cortes appointing him Captain General of the third expedition. The agreement stated that the objects of the voyage were exploration and discovery, conversion of the natives and their acceptance of Spanish sovereignty. Cortes morgaged his lands in Cuba and borrowed another 4000 gold pesos from the merchants of Santiago; he was ready to gamble all he owned on the success of the venture.​
 
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painandgreed said:
I'm not sure what to think about my 1st level character whose family has survived on less than 100 GP/year to suddenly end up with 600+ GP after a few days of adventuring. In a desperate world, why isn't everybody adventuring? Defeat one CR 1 level enounter and you've made three years income for you and your family (according to Table3-3). If that encounter only depleats you of 20% of so of your resources, then it's a pretty good bet.
In a desperate world, many people do take large risks. If we equate a peasant's income with a modern income of $10,000, then what risks might a modern young man with few prospects take to earn $60,000? (Keeping in mind that a modern individual in poverty has absolute wealth similar to a medieval burgher, but social status more like a peasant.)

And in a not-so-desperate world many people will take large risks for a potentially huge gain. Look at any gold rush.

But I think you've downplayed some of the complications of adventuring. First, I don't think there's a CR-1 encounter around every corner, with CR-1-appropriate treasure. You have to find out about the poorly guarded merchant caravan, the lost tomb of whatshisname, or whatever, and you have to find out about it before anyone else gets to it. Then you have to prepare yourself -- and if you're not already a mercenary, how are you going to train and arm yourself? Then you have to travel to the site and risk your life.

And that's the next big hurdle. Losing 20% of your resources can mean facing a one-in-five chance of death. (The D&D combat system bends over backwards to keep winners from suffering -- you have a buffer of ablative hit points, and magical healing to restore you -- but with a more realistic combat model, you'd either expect to come out unscathed or...quite scathed.) Would you risk a one-in-five chance of death for a few years' income?
 

Some quick replies:
Storminator said:
I'll note that clerics and bards can also make magic items, and I would certainly expect clerics to make magic arms and armor.
Of course. My first 3.x character was a dwarven cleric who put as many ranks as he could into weaponsmith and armorsmith so he could do just that. I haven't gotten to clerics yet really. I'll figure them in as soon as I can and then adjust previous statements to fit everything together.
RangerWicket said:
Where do the monsters get the treasure? Why aren't they already dead from having hundreds of people hunt them down and take their stuff?
I touch on that in one of my posts. I think that the GP value for CRs is a little too high, at least at lower levels. This is the medieval age, all the wealth is accumilated at the top. One solution is that they simply aren't that common. Every village doesn't have a tomb waiting for adventurers to clear out for generations. Why isn't everyone clamoring to clear out the one that is there and why hasn't it been clreaed out years ago. Easiest solution that somebody else touched on is that is that the PCs are the lucky ones that find out about it. They get the secret treasure map to follow and probably have to keep it quiet of the village will get their own group together. The party may have to keep it quiet or the village might see them as a CR1 encounter. Watch _The Seven Samurai_ for a look inside the peasant's mind and life. It may be fuedal Japan but it carries over into Europe fairly well. The peasants may be poor but they all have hidden drink and food because life is so hard, it is required to survive. They are not above preforming coup de grace on a lone sleeping knight to take his stuff which they keep hidden. So far, the peasant's life I've laid out is for a serf. Such serfs aren't allowed to wander away from their land and adventure by law. They are tied to the land. The lord not only doesn't want them adventuring because if they die, his income drops, but also because he wants to adventure to gain that money (and XP). If they do, and its discovered, they'll have everything taken away and be punished because the system is there to keep them in check. Another excuse is that the money is there but typically the DM makes it too easy for the adventures. An extended peasant family, father with sons and families, would probably be a CR 1 encounter. They may have 300 GP worth of "treasure" but it's 100 GP worth of food (probably over 10 pounds per GP value), 100 gp of rusty farm tools, 10 GP in patched clothing, 10 GP for the instrument the father plays at the festivals, 40 GP in peasant furnature in their houses, 30 Gp for the rusty sword and daggers they had, and 10 GP in silver that is buried under the floor boards in the house a foot deep in the ground. Similarly, most wealth of a CR1 humanoid group is going to be in the form or food, arms, and armor.
PJ-mason said:
But how big would the surrounding kingdoms need to be to get that many mercenaries? 15,150 is a lot of people to find in kingdoms like these, isn't it?
Ya, just paying out for 15,150 mercenaries isn't something that could actually be done easily. But then again, the example was to show that raising such an army is not cheap nor easy enough for even an epic adventuring party to simply pay out of pocket and have done. That is the the scale that countries work on and while an epic party could easily work on that level, it would require a different mindset and preparation that the low level dungeon crawl with a few hirelings. That model just doesn't scale up very well.

Of course, even in RL you encounter stories of small trained groups (adventuring parties) defeating much larger groups or at least preforming heroicly against them. There were several instances in Greek history where small groups of several hundred men fougth off thousands because they could fight them in mountain passes where only a few could fight at a time and the well trained Greeks slaughtered soldier after soldier in one on one combat.
 

painandgreed said:
Ya, 13 GP per acre per year. 3 GP/acre goes to seed for replanting the next year. 3/7 goes to the lord that owns the land. 1/10 goes to the local cleric as tythes. The average family makes 260 GP/year. 60 goes to stored seed to plant next year. 111 goes to the lord. 26 goes to the cleric and in return they get free healing and such. 36 goes to feed the family for that year. So, their disposable income is 27 GP/year although that must go to new farm equipment, clothes, tools, etc.

Thanks for the reality check here, was sorely needed.

I'd like to know the approximate dollar value of the GP used for the OP figures.

You need to keep a good deal of seed to replant the next year. No seed for next year means no harvest and everybody starves.

Yes, and there's this thing called SPOILAGE, which ruins perhaps 1/3 of what is stored. Worse if there are lots of rats, mice, dampness, etc. So figure 50% more seed needing to be stored (more or less) than that. Heck, even today, in places other that the USA where we have all these sophisticated storage methods, spoilage takes a good 20% or more of any crop.

Much higher on fruits and vegetables. If you've ever dealt with the produce department in a grocery store, you know how much of their product is unsalable - and that goes all the way back down the chain. Fruits were generally preserved or turned into liquor, because they couldn't be stored otherwise. No refrigeration or cold storage.

The food of a peasant is not pleasant. Mostly they have a pot that is constantly heated of peas and porridge over the fire.

Hence the song.

Peas porridge hot
Peas porridge cold
Peas porridge in the pot
nine days old



1 CP (lb) of grain turns into 1 gallon of beer.

Very very weak beer, assuming good starch conversion.


Charge 1 CP per quart and you've quadrupled your money


Assuming that it didn't go bad in the brewing process. Under generally unsanitary conditions and less than perfect knowledge of yeast dynamics...


It may not be what the adventurers are used to but its what the average farmer drank.


That's also because beer/wine/alcoholic beverages were on average, less dangerous than the local water, taken from the same river that everyone is dumping their waste into.


Also keep in mind that 1/3 of all land is fallow (usually used for pasture during that time) each year, so a family may work 20 acres a year, but they really have 30 acres but 10 remain fallow. Next year, they'll plant that 10 acres and 10 acres of the land they planted this year will be allowed to go fallow.

Also a good point.
 

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