Fantasy world maps and real world geology

[jgbrowning]

You can’t create a map that uses real world physics and magic because real world physics are incompatible with magic.

I don't think that this dichotomy exists. If you want to say you can't create a map that 100% uses real world physics and also uses magic you're correct, but except for 100% or nothing scenarios you certainly can create a map that uses real world physics and magic.

joe b.

 

[fusangite]

Can someone please explain to me where and how the rules indicate that a D+D world would not or cannot have plate tectonics - a result of the natural movement of molten earth - because earth is an element???

I'm not sure what to do with this question. You have all the information I use to deduce that the most logical interpretation of the RAW is that D&D worlds don't have plate tectonics.

The reason our earth's core is molten is because a nuclear reaction is continuously taking place in there. If we accept that earth is an element, it therefore follows that the things that we define as elements are not. Either air is an element or hydrogen is an element; either carbon is an element or earth is an element. There are no systems of physics in which both the periodic table and the four elements exist concurrently. And nuclear reactions happen because certain isotopes of certain elements that do not exist in D&D interact in a particularway.

In the 4 and 5 element systems of physics that I know of, there are very different explanatory structures for vulcanism sometimes involving gods, the telos of the fire at the time of its creation or the transformation of metal into fire through the passage of time.

Now I suppose I could design a system with plate tectonics and four elements so perhaps I should tone down my language. I'm just saying that I think it is the most logical assumption that a game that stipulates a four element system and the existence of gods is tilting towards terrain features having been formed using very different processes that those which formed our world's terrain.

And, while you're at it, please also explain why weather (a result of the natural movement and mixing of air [another element]) *does* exist?

Because of the action of meteors. Says so right in Aristotle. Hence the discipline Meteorology.

If you've got weather, internal consistency dictates you've got tectonics.

All 4/5-element theories that exist in the world have weather; no 4/5-element theory that exists in the world has plate tectonics. So I'm afraid I'm not getting the point you are trying to make.

 

[jgbrowning]

Just 2 questions:

1) Any scientific resources online that would help design a geologically realistic world?

2) There is a PDF ebook on this subject (creating geologically realistic RPG worlds), but I don't remember its name. Anyone has a link?

Thanks.

On number one, a really great place to start reading is wikipedia's entry on Geography. It has a lot of cool branches to go down for both physical and human geography. Just pick and read and eventually things will start to stick and you'll find something that interests you particularly.

On number two that's A Magical Society: Ecology and Culture. There's also the free chapter on mapping called A Magical Society: Guide to Mapping. They're both available at www.yourgamesnow.com.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

I'm not sure what to do with this question. You have all the information I use to deduce that the most logical interpretation of the RAW is that D&D worlds don't have plate tectonics.

And yet we have reached different conclusions. Perhaps there is a communication issue.

The reason our earth's core is molten is because a nuclear reaction is continuously taking place in there. If we accept that earth is an element, it therefore follows that the things that we define as elements are not. Either air is an element or hydrogen is an element; either carbon is an element or earth is an element. There are no systems of physics in which both the periodic table and the four elements exist concurrently.

Yes there is: the Joe B. System of Physics and Four-Element Concurrent System.

It's not either/or. Just because there's magic doesn't mean that real-world physics doesn't work. Just because there's elements doesn't mean that real-world element theories work either. And in both situations there's nothing saying that one or the other is more logical for the construction of worlds in which D&D games occur.

Now I suppose I could design a system with plate tectonics and four elements so perhaps I should tone down my language.

Which is what I think you've been missing. Your argument seems to be based upon a conception that if real-world physics can't work in an elemental world, than real-world elemental physics works. I don't think it's either/or.

I suspect that most of the time, both work in the bog-standard D&D world. Volcanoes blow up not only because of tectonics, they can blow up because of an elemental-physics (magical) reason.

joe b.

 

[Hussar]

Picked this out of some really good thoughts:

Because they're tougher than the housecats we're used to? Or at least the ones who attack the players are.

((Emphasis mine))

See, right there, that's the out. When you say that the reality for the players might be different than the reality of the general populace, then the whole physics=game rules argument goes out the window. As RC has repeatedly stated, if I was a scientist in a D&D world, I would discover that RAW=physics.

But, if I was an NPC scientist, I might discover that RAW =/= physics since I get different cats. ((Would that be a Schrodinger?)) Thus, the rules of the game apply to the players, but not to the world at large.

We see this all the time. Why isn't every person in a D&D world 20th level by the time they are 40? Why isn't every Elf epic leveled? Even if they only survived a single CR encounter every year, they would still be epic leveled. A forest fire would see every survivor gain a level or just about. Someone who had been near a tornado survives a CR 10 encounter. Poof, instant 2nd level and very close to 3rd.

People in Kansas must all be epic.

I suspect that most of the time, both work in the bog-standard D&D world. Volcanoes blow up not only because of tectonics, they can blow up because of an elemental-physics (magical) reason.

Actually, I would say that volcanoes blow up due to the reasons of DM intervention.

 

[awayfarer]

People in Kansas must all be epic.

I'm sure Multi would be glad to hear you say that. There might be some truth to it though. I imagine you'd need to have an epic level will save to not end up bored to death in Kansas.

 

[fusangite]

And yet we have reached different conclusions. Perhaps there is a communication issue.

I think it's more about how you and I understand systems of cause and effect and how physics models them with imperfect knowledge. It may be a communications issue at its root but I think it hinges more on how we understand predictive systems and how their are modeled.

It's not either/or. Just because there's magic doesn't mean that real-world physics doesn't work.

Yes it does. I'm sorry but it's just that simple. Real world physics predicts that you will be unable to transform a ball of bat guano into 33510.32 cubic feet of pure fire using only words. D&D physics predicts that you can. When a wizard attempts to cast fireball, one of these systems will be validated but not both.

Which is what I think you've been missing. Your argument seems to be based upon a conception that if real-world physics can't work in an elemental world, than real-world elemental physics works. I don't think it's either/or.

I don't understand this paragraph. I'm not disagreeing with it. I just don't understand it.

 

[Hussar]

But, Fusangite, real world physics should apply pretty much universally. Or at least as close to universally as possible. Yet, the xp rules in the DMG don't apply to the general population or else everyone over the age of 40 would be a double digit level NPC.

The rules apply to playing the game. It is not an attempt to model the reality in which the game is plaed.

 

[fusangite]

But, Fusangite, real world physics should apply pretty much universally. Or at least as close to universally as possible. Yet, the xp rules in the DMG don't apply to the general population or else everyone over the age of 40 would be a double digit level NPC.

The DMG has clear demographics rules that say that this is not the case. There are specific rules in the book that contradict your assertion.

The rules apply to playing the game. It is not an attempt to model the reality in which the game is plaed.

Here's the problem. If you argue that one set of physical laws applies when the characters are present and a completely different set of physical laws applies when they are not there, you don't have a very coherent or sensible universe.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm not sure what to do with this question. You have all the information I use to deduce that the most logical interpretation of the RAW is that D&D worlds don't have plate tectonics.

I do? Where? (remember, I'm not dyed-in-the-wool 3e, so if it's obvious to you in there it's probably not going to be obvious to me...)

The reason our earth's core is molten is because a nuclear reaction is continuously taking place in there. If we accept that earth is an element, it therefore follows that the things that we define as elements are not. Either air is an element or hydrogen is an element; either carbon is an element or earth is an element. There are no systems of physics in which both the periodic table and the four elements exist concurrently. And nuclear reactions happen because certain isotopes of certain elements that do not exist in D&D interact in a particularway.

OK, there's our problem: use of the word "element". Just like the word "level", it can have different meanings. The way I see it, the "element" air is made up of the "elements" oxygen, hydrogen, and a bunch of other stuff. Ditto for earth-the-element; it is made up of a bunch of "elements" that react with each other in ways quite easily translatable from the real world, and there is absolutely no reason why the in-game existence of one must perforce preclude the in-game existence of the other.

Now I suppose I could design a system with plate tectonics and four elements

I would hope you could; it's trivially easy.

so perhaps I should tone down my language. I'm just saying that I think it is the most logical assumption that a game that stipulates a four element system and the existence of gods is tilting towards terrain features having been formed using very different processes that those which formed our world's terrain.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. And even if the gods built the mountains to begin with, they're going to erode the same way mountains on Earth do. Further, I see no problem with tectonics and god-forces existing side-by-side...a god put a continent *here* but 25 million years later it has drifted to now be over *there*, no problem!

[re weather]Because of the action of meteors. Says so right in Aristotle. Hence the discipline Meteorology.All 4/5-element theories that exist in the world have weather; no 4/5-element theory that exists in the world has plate tectonics. So I'm afraid I'm not getting the point you are trying to make.

Weather is something most DMs bother to think about. Plate tectonics aren't. Further, I've never seen a theory anywhere (though in truth I haven't looked too hard) that says the 4 or 5 earth-air-fire-water-magic/spirit "elements" are not just the sum of the even more basic elemental parts that make them up, the workings of which (well, except for magic/spirit) we somewhat know from real-world experience.

It just makes things easier for most people if things as far as possible work they way we're used to, with magic/spirit kind of overlaid on top.

That said, I'm not sure I'm getting your point either.

Lanefan