Faramir

[The Sigil]

And again, it's not Faramir rejected the Ring that would have been a problem, so much as the appearance that he'd done so easily.

Having seen the movie twice now, and paying particular attention to Faramir this time around...

I'm still not satisfied. Faramir's character in the movie just suddenly seems to decide, out of nowhere, that taking the ring to Gondor is bad and letting the hobbits... esp. Frodo, whom he has just seen lose a struggle to control the ring... take the ring to Mordor is good.

I understand what everyone here is saying in that the change needed to be made, but for me, there was no convincing process through which Faramir decided the ring was bad. It was almost deux ex machina ("well, the NPC could kick the snot out of you and drag you to Gondor, and he wants to kick the snot out of you and drag you to Gondor, but because that would ruin my story arc with the other PCs, he suddenly, inexplicably becomes disinterested and lets you go").

I watched very closely for any indication that Faramir was even CONSIDERING changing his mind. And I found none.

And I think they could have shown Faramir's struggle very easily. When he sees the ring on Frodo's neck, rather than obviously being tempted to take it, only to be "told off" by Sam and then "hurried out" by his lieutenant, they need only to show him reminescing/pondering a bit. Something to the effect of...

"So this is Isildur's Bane. The answer to the riddle. The dream my brother had... was of the one ring. (fade to Boromir and Faramir talking, with Faramir's voice continuing to voice over) In my heart I knew this from the time he told me of his dream. (fade to Faramir sitting alone, smoking a pipe, with thoughtful look on his face) And in my heart I pondered... if Isildur's Bane had been found, why not use it to destroy our enemy? (hold a few seconds on Faramir pondering, then make a slow fade a shot of a ringwraith in place of Faramir - as though he is recognizing the fate of the ringbearers, then fade the ringwraith back into pondering Faramir, whose eyes go steely, firm with resolve. Then return shot to Faramir in the cave speaking to Frodo and Sam). At length I realized that the ring has only the power to destroy... and that if the noble Isildur could not control it, how could I, or Boromir, or anyone else not of the line of kings even stand a chance of controlling it. You need not fear, little ones. Now is the time for Faramir to show his quality. My decision was made in private long ago, when I was myself and had my thought unclouded by the proximate lure of the ring. (He drops his sword from Frodo's neck) I will not touch the ring, nor will I take it to Gondor... to do so would tempt me beyond my power to resist. (Turns away, camera stays with his face - he's obviously struggling to get this out) Go now to Mordor, and go quickly, 'ere the ring takes hold of my mind also and causes my resolve to falter."

*The lieutenant sees Faramir ushering the hobbits toward the edge of the camp*

L: "If you let them go, your life will be forfeit!"

F: "Then it is forfeit."

How hard was that? Takes as much time to do the exposition as it did for Gandalf to do his little exposition on Sauron's torture of Gollum. The ring is still tempting and spooky. And Faramir is shown to be as thoughtful and wise as he was in the books.

--The Sigil

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Bravo Sigil.

 

[edbonny]

I wholeheartedly disagree. PJ's Faramir was completely untrue to Tolkien's vision

Tolkien's Faramir was (much to his father's disgust) quite the fan of Gandalf in his youth. Farmir followed Gandalf's counsels and was akin to the faithful Numenorian men of old. His traits were those of far-sightedness, nobleness and goodness... and by this portrayal he can be seen as someone similar to the Wise. Given this established background, Faramir's actions in the movie were completely out of character. Faramir <B>knew </B>his brother and he also <B>knew</B> Gandalf. He trusted in them so completely that this understanding became the basis of Faramir's decision to let the hobbits go (rather than sieze them for Denethor).

Boromir, on the other hand, was Denethor's favorite... truly his father's son. Boromir prized the rule of Gondor's proud and lawful society and like the corrupted Numenoreans who doomed their empire as a direct result of Sauron's influence, Boromir doomed himself after lusting for Sauron's influence ring.

A lot of what PJ did, he did for dramatic effect to pump up the movie's adrenalin effect. Letting the hobbits go as per the book was not nearly as "Hollywood" as almost having Frodo lose the ring to Boromir's brother - a soap operatic turn which cheapened the characters IMO.

As for those who find Tolkien's Faramir too unbelievable but are willing to open their eyes to the possibility of it being true, I recommend going out into world and meeting more people. I have met men and women whose kindness, goodness and nobility matches or even exceeds Faramir. They are out there. I've met quite a few.

- Ed

 

[KnowTheToe]

New Faramir good. Old faramir good. New faramir have richer character due to conflict and helps re-enforce concept of the power of the ring. Old faramir not do this. choice, me like new Faramir.

 

[Bob Aberton]

Well spoken, Toe.

Maybe it could have been done differently. But could it have been done better? IMHO, no.

I would interpret Faramir's letting Frodo go right after the Ringwraith incident as recognition that the Ring should be destroyed and that Frodo was really the only one to do it (after all, he couldn't take the Ring himself, and he couldn't entrust it to anyone else...the only person who could be trusted even a little bit to take the Ring to Mt. Doom was the Ringbearer.).

 

[edbonny]

Faramir Red, Faramir Blue, Faramir Old, Faramir New...

New Faramir good. Old faramir good. New faramir have richer character due to conflict and helps re-enforce concept of the power of the ring. Old faramir not do this. choice, me like new Faramir.

Toe,

I am curious as to your reasoning. Could you define for us what in your opinion "character" is and what makes a character richer than another? Also, in what ways does the old Faramir differ from the new? What is different about the "good" you claim each Faramir is? Lastly, how does this richer character (because of conflict) re-enforce the concept of the power of the ring? How does the old Faramir not reenforce the concept?

Basically, I'd like you to compare and contrast the two Faramirs you mention because it sounds interesting and you're arguement is very vague. Please give a lot of details. This argument is intriguing!

Thanks - Ed

 

[shilsen]

Sorry; I guess the way I wrote that wasn't clear.

Aragorn doesn't struggle with the Ring in the novels (that I recall anyway), but he does seem to do so in the movies. (At the end of Fellowship, when he lets Frodo go, I've always interpreted his momentary hesitation as a brief internal struggle.)

So no, it wasn't a factor in the books, but once it was introduced into the movies--as well it should have been, IMHO--it further necessitated the change in Faramir.

And again, it's not Faramir rejected the Ring that would have been a problem, so much as the appearance that he'd done so easily.

I see. In that case, I agree

 

[KnowTheToe]

Re: Faramir Red, Faramir Blue, Faramir Old, Faramir New...

Toe,

I am curious as to your reasoning. Could you define for us what in your opinion "character" is and what makes a character richer than another? Also, in what ways does the old Faramir differ from the new? What is different about the "good" you claim each Faramir is? Lastly, how does this richer character (because of conflict) re-enforce the concept of the power of the ring? How does the old Faramir not reenforce the concept?

Basically, I'd like you to compare and contrast the two Faramirs you mention because it sounds interesting and you're arguement is very vague. Please give a lot of details. This argument is intriguing!

Thanks - Ed

It was supposed to be vague, I was writing in my barbarian voice. Basically I believe the theatrical version of Faramir could not get the same amount of story and development time as in the book, therefore it is easier to develope his character strength by overemphaising his decision and struggle with the ring. When we first see him we are supposed to think he is the same as Boromir, but in the end he has a little more strength and honor than Boromir. PJ now has the third movie to develope him into a likeable and admirable person.

One of the things I really liked about these movies is the continual effect of the ring. It is always plauging someone. From Bilbo's struggle to give it up and Gandalf's muttering at the fire to the effects at the coucil of Elrond and the outburst of Boromir against Frodo to Faramir. Not to mention Frodo's constant struggle. PJ will not let us forget what is at stake. Most movies bring up something this heavy and forget about it and let viewers get lost in other aspects of the story. Here the ring is at the center of everything.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I wholeheartedly disagree. PJ's Faramir was completely untrue to Tolkien's vision

Tolkien's Faramir was (much to his father's disgust) quite the fan of Gandalf in his youth. Farmir followed Gandalf's counsels and was akin to the faithful Numenorian men of old. His traits were those of far-sightedness, nobleness and goodness... and by this portrayal he can be seen as someone similar to the Wise. Given this established background, Faramir's actions in the movie were completely out of character. Faramir <B>knew </B>his brother and he also <B>knew</B> Gandalf. He trusted in them so completely that this understanding became the basis of Faramir's decision to let the hobbits go (rather than sieze them for Denethor).

The problem, though, is that there is simply no way to convey that sort of information to a movie audience without drastically breaking the momentum of the story, and no matter what source material you're using, it's simply bad film-making to have characters act on motivations that are not revealed in the movie. It's background that, while certainly interesting, has no bearing on the story except for how it influences this one decision. So Jackson can either have a bunch of scenes where people talk about why Faramir chooses as he does--or he can change events so that the audience sees why he does it.

The first option doesn't work well in movies; the second does. Faramir's background is only "established" to those who have read the books, and it's simply not possible (or even desirable) to write a movie adaptation that requires the audience already be familiar with the material.

 

[edbonny]

Mouse & Toe,

I agree with what you say... there was little way to adapt what was happening in the book to the movie without some radical departures.

My disappointment stems from the fact that it was unexpected and took me by surprise. I prefer to be warned in advance so as to change my expectations.

Ed