Intermagus
First Post
bump.....gotta find out which of these really is best thought of. 
Favorite Setting of All Time?
- Thread starter Paul_Klein
- Start date
Conservative Cow
First Post
DARK SUN!!!!!!
You are not a real roleplayer if you don't like Dark Sun.
You are not a real roleplayer if you don't like Dark Sun.
Holy Bovine
First Post
Wraith101 said:
AGH!! He/She said the 'R' word in conjunction with the 'F' word (no not that F-Word).
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....
runs screaming from the thread before the Hottentots arrive
btw - welcome to the ENBoards!
Paul_Klein
Explorer
Well, now that the poll has recieved almost 200 votes, is anyone surprised by the "winners" or "losers"?
Golem Joe
First Post
For DnD? Greyhawk!
This is a tough one, though. I'm also a big fan of Dark Sun -- the first version, that is, when Tim Brown still had some control.
In the non-DnD category, I've had great fun exploring Theah, the world setting for the 7th Sea game. It definately ranks up there with Dark Sun in a dead heat for second place.
The new up and comer, however, is the Lejendary Earth setting. It a bigger version of Greyhawk without all the baggage tied in from years of bad modules and suppliments. Stripped down, raw and ready to take on whatever I need. Heck, I could probably run a DnD campaign with it so long as I had a copy of Deities and Demigods handy.
This is a tough one, though. I'm also a big fan of Dark Sun -- the first version, that is, when Tim Brown still had some control.
In the non-DnD category, I've had great fun exploring Theah, the world setting for the 7th Sea game. It definately ranks up there with Dark Sun in a dead heat for second place.
The new up and comer, however, is the Lejendary Earth setting. It a bigger version of Greyhawk without all the baggage tied in from years of bad modules and suppliments. Stripped down, raw and ready to take on whatever I need. Heck, I could probably run a DnD campaign with it so long as I had a copy of Deities and Demigods handy.
jgbrowning
Hero
fave world
It would have to be the one i submitted to WOTC....
..
of those listed, greyhawk. planscape was a little too berkish for me.
harn was the most realistic.
joe b.
It would have to be the one i submitted to WOTC....
..of those listed, greyhawk. planscape was a little too berkish for me.
harn was the most realistic.
joe b.
Ashrem Bayle
Explorer
Wheel of Time 
JeffB
Legend
I picked other, because as good as some of the D&D settings are, most are poor compared to some others by different companies...
Middle Earth, Glorantha, and Earthdawn's Barsaive are my faves..with Tekemul right behind...the sheer depth and creativity of these have yet to be matched...
As far as D&D goes..My heart will always be with Greyhawk as best of all time though sadly, for years, it's been treated as the red-headed stepchild of the D&D settings..
JG wilderlands was quite good...
Pre-ToT Forgotten Realms was fantastic...Perfect example of how to not leave well-enough alone...
I also love Planescape but always felt the idea was better than the execution...
Scarred Lands started out really good and had my utmost attention, but is one of those settings that I feel was much more exciting when we didn't know so much about it.....now..it's getting a little stale AFAIC...
But IMO, Kalamar is hands down the best D&D setting being published today....This is what Greyhawk could have been....
When Necromancer revives the JG line though...I might have to re-think my choice..
Middle Earth, Glorantha, and Earthdawn's Barsaive are my faves..with Tekemul right behind...the sheer depth and creativity of these have yet to be matched...
As far as D&D goes..My heart will always be with Greyhawk as best of all time though sadly, for years, it's been treated as the red-headed stepchild of the D&D settings..
JG wilderlands was quite good...
Pre-ToT Forgotten Realms was fantastic...Perfect example of how to not leave well-enough alone...
I also love Planescape but always felt the idea was better than the execution...
Scarred Lands started out really good and had my utmost attention, but is one of those settings that I feel was much more exciting when we didn't know so much about it.....now..it's getting a little stale AFAIC...
But IMO, Kalamar is hands down the best D&D setting being published today....This is what Greyhawk could have been....
When Necromancer revives the JG line though...I might have to re-think my choice..
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Re: Re: *Spits and chokes*
The almanacs are a poor shadow of what the original Gazetteers did... imagine a 96 to 128-page product all about one country. Heck, go drop $5 on WotC and pick up a Gazetteer from WotC - there are 4 or 5 available.
Going off memory here...
You had a halfling homeland (the Five Shires) complete with a discussion of halfling law (Sheriffs and how they work) and halfling "prestige classes." It also connected halflings intiimately to their land (once a day, a halfling can attempt to "counterspell" a hostile spell, but only when in the Shires and only when the spell is to affect a loved one or similar). Come to think of it, most of these supplements effectively contained PrCs.
You had classes and levels for orcs, trolls, etc. (Orcs of Thar) long before 3e. You saw a group of creatures that lived under the inhospitable land that is the Broken Lands but held out hope for themselves with great sorcerers and leaders.
You saw a kingdom where arcane magic is law - and clerics are outlawed (Kingdom of Glantri). A completely magic-dominated culture where only an arcane caster is a "true" citizen - something I have rarely (if ever) seen in other settings. Furthermore, at the heart of this kingdom is an artifact with deep historical - as well as magical - significance.
You have the quintessential elven homeland, complete with mystical Trees of Life (Elves of Alfheim). Add on the information gleaned in one of the adventure modules, and you get some really nifty stuff with the "origin of elves in the Known World." This holds the distinction of being one of the only two products that has ever made me even consider playing an elf (I hate elves).
You have quintessential dwarven culture (Dwarves of Rockhome), complete with a discussion of "why are dwarves the way they are?"
You have primitive island kingdoms concerned with tourism (Kingdom of Ierendi).
You have italian city-states (Republic of Darokin), where gold makes the rules.
You have Native American Culture (the Atruaghin Clans).
You have mongol culture (The Golden Khan of Ethengar). Steppe horsemen, archers on horseback, nomads in tents, what have you.
You have arabian culture (The Emirates of Ylaruam), where "honor" and "culture" and "religion" are valued.
You have classical Roman culture (the Empire of Thyatis from Dawn of the Emperors).
You have another kingdom of magic; but this one was founded by plane-hopping humans from another dimension (the Empire of Alphatia) that are so far gone culturally that they are being destroyed by addictive drug use (which inhibits their magical abilities).
Vikings? Check. (The Northern Reaches)
"Classic" middle-european medieval setting with lots of dark forests and frontiers and farming communities? Check. (The Grand Duchy of Karameikos)
Drow? Check - sort of. (The Shadow Elves - a much better detailed, believable, and dare I say tragic story than the FR drow).
Basically, you have pretty much everything you could want here. But the HISTORY is what I really love - when you assemble all of the Gazetteers and all of the OD&D modules, a truly rich history takes shape.
Karameikos - used to be dominated by the Hutaakans, a jackal-headed race frail in body but strong in mind. The Hutaakans are having some problems of their own and have retreated from the scene - a "lost culture" that explains the fierce hatred of Karameikans for gnolls, orcs, and other humanoids.
Blackmoor - Dave Arneson's Blackmoor was "set" into the dark past of the world - it was destroyed by a nuclear cataclysm that tipped the world's axis and caused the flight of elves (both shadow elves and "normal elves" - the history of the trees of life - and the hatred of the shadow elves for normal elves - is tied up in this.) Humans have long forgotten this, but for elves, this was only two or three generations ago... they remember very well and it also explains why they are so vehemently anti-technology.
Visitors from other worlds - The nuclear cataclysm that destroyed Blackmoor came from a crashed supertechnology alien ship. The ship's reactor exploded. What happened to the reactor? It was converted to a source of magical energy by the immortals and now sits beneath the surface of Glantri. I already mentioned the Alphatian mages... who were destroyed by a schism in their own ranks.
Lost cultures - The Nithians, similar to Egyptian culture but destroyed (or at least banished) by the immortals.
I could go on and on, but hopefully the point has been made. This was a gorgeous world, with beautiful history and rich diversity.
I personally didn't care for the "Hollow World" concept, but suffice to say that adds even more richness to the world.
Enter 2e and the transition to "Mystara" and what do we have?
Well, first and foremost, we have "historical creep" - one of the things I absolutely loathed about the FR was that they had to keep updating the world to keep up with the novels. Give me a world with a history, and let ME do the future, not you.
Follow that up with "massive change" - well, we have to "shake things up" to explain all the rules mechanic changes associated with the transition to a new edition. The shadow elves blast out the "regular" elves from their home and the quintessential elven forest begins to fall into decay and death. Now there is NO central elven culture. This was especially embittering to me since I had finally found an elven culture I could enjoy and embrace. Then find a way to "force" clerics back into Glantri - no problem, we'll just introduce a "day of trouble" where magic doesn't work, followed by a plague, forcing Glantri to accept clerics in order to survive. Take hope away from the humanoid races by "rewriting history" such that all of their great leaders were actually deformed shadow elves. In other words, generally turn the shadow elves into the true "movers and shakers" of the world - because people think shadow elves are cool. BLEH! Shadow elves WERE cool - but it was because of their culture and history, not because they were "dark elves."
In other words, spend fifteen years crafting a diverse, interesting world, then spend six months destroying everything you have created.
Focus on the Savage Coast and focus on radiation poisioning. Focus on Karameikos AFTER it kicks out its classic villains (Bargle the Infamous and the Black Eagle Baron von Hendricks). Focus on a Kingdom of Magic that can't rely on magic any more and has to admit clerics. But don't focus on the dozen other cultures that truly made the world what it was - a culturally diverse place where you had fascinating intrigue and interaction.
Ugh. Give me the Boxed Sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, et al). Give me the Gazetteers. Give me the B-series, X-series, CM-series, M-series, IM-series, AC-series, and DA-series.
Give me cultures that lived and breathed, not reams of stats (the almanacs are nice for creating realistic economies, I'll grant you that, though). Don't give me "Realms lite" where drow - er - shadow elves are the dominant force. Don't give me "Realms lite" where changes are made to CULTURES to reflect changes in the RULES WE USE TO MODEL THE WORLD (these are two very separate things and you should change the RULES to reflect the CULTURE, not the other way around).
Don't give me "historical creep" - if you say, "today is 1000 AD - start your campaign here" in a product, I damn well better not see anything for "this is what will happen in 1001 or 1010 AD." If you want to add more details about what happened in 800 AD or 500 AD or even 999 AD, fine. But LEAVE THE FUTURE OUT OF IT! I'm the DM, let me and my PCs determine the future of a world.
This is fast becoming a rant, so I'll stop. Suffice it to say that Mystara murdered the Known World in the same way the Time of Troubles ruined the Realms (it was possibly worse). Could I have used a Conversion Booklet to tell me how a "Halfling Master" converts to a "Halfling Fighter/Ranger?" Sure. That's rules - tell me how to adjust my model to fit the new system. Please. But DON'T go changing the cultures just because somebody thought up a new rule.
A campaign world itself (the history, people, cultures, and events) never "needs fixing" to accomodate a new rule. TSR/WotC has violated this principle with the Realms and even more egregiously with the Known World. Note that they seem to have done Greyhawk correctly - as far as I can tell, the people, places, and cultures of Greyhawk have NOT been revised every time a new ruleset came out - Greyhawk itself has remained mostly static.
Remember the funny threads about Realms citizens telling us "sales of spikes in the Realms are down, but those who put their money into Boots of Striding and Springing are seeing major returns"?
Changes in the rules should be *completely transparent* to the denizens of a campaign world. Sadly, they have not been. THAT is why I can't stand "Mystara" - or the Realms, for that matter. They violate this simple idea - and they didn't have to.
--The Sigil
I really don't know how to even begin answering this... it would take hours. Suffice to say that the "Known World" setting consisted of a beautiful panorama of cultures with a fascinating backstory.BronzeDragon said:
The almanacs are a poor shadow of what the original Gazetteers did... imagine a 96 to 128-page product all about one country. Heck, go drop $5 on WotC and pick up a Gazetteer from WotC - there are 4 or 5 available.
Going off memory here...
You had a halfling homeland (the Five Shires) complete with a discussion of halfling law (Sheriffs and how they work) and halfling "prestige classes." It also connected halflings intiimately to their land (once a day, a halfling can attempt to "counterspell" a hostile spell, but only when in the Shires and only when the spell is to affect a loved one or similar). Come to think of it, most of these supplements effectively contained PrCs.
You had classes and levels for orcs, trolls, etc. (Orcs of Thar) long before 3e. You saw a group of creatures that lived under the inhospitable land that is the Broken Lands but held out hope for themselves with great sorcerers and leaders.
You saw a kingdom where arcane magic is law - and clerics are outlawed (Kingdom of Glantri). A completely magic-dominated culture where only an arcane caster is a "true" citizen - something I have rarely (if ever) seen in other settings. Furthermore, at the heart of this kingdom is an artifact with deep historical - as well as magical - significance.
You have the quintessential elven homeland, complete with mystical Trees of Life (Elves of Alfheim). Add on the information gleaned in one of the adventure modules, and you get some really nifty stuff with the "origin of elves in the Known World." This holds the distinction of being one of the only two products that has ever made me even consider playing an elf (I hate elves).
You have quintessential dwarven culture (Dwarves of Rockhome), complete with a discussion of "why are dwarves the way they are?"
You have primitive island kingdoms concerned with tourism (Kingdom of Ierendi).
You have italian city-states (Republic of Darokin), where gold makes the rules.
You have Native American Culture (the Atruaghin Clans).
You have mongol culture (The Golden Khan of Ethengar). Steppe horsemen, archers on horseback, nomads in tents, what have you.
You have arabian culture (The Emirates of Ylaruam), where "honor" and "culture" and "religion" are valued.
You have classical Roman culture (the Empire of Thyatis from Dawn of the Emperors).
You have another kingdom of magic; but this one was founded by plane-hopping humans from another dimension (the Empire of Alphatia) that are so far gone culturally that they are being destroyed by addictive drug use (which inhibits their magical abilities).
Vikings? Check. (The Northern Reaches)
"Classic" middle-european medieval setting with lots of dark forests and frontiers and farming communities? Check. (The Grand Duchy of Karameikos)
Drow? Check - sort of. (The Shadow Elves - a much better detailed, believable, and dare I say tragic story than the FR drow).
Basically, you have pretty much everything you could want here. But the HISTORY is what I really love - when you assemble all of the Gazetteers and all of the OD&D modules, a truly rich history takes shape.
Karameikos - used to be dominated by the Hutaakans, a jackal-headed race frail in body but strong in mind. The Hutaakans are having some problems of their own and have retreated from the scene - a "lost culture" that explains the fierce hatred of Karameikans for gnolls, orcs, and other humanoids.
Blackmoor - Dave Arneson's Blackmoor was "set" into the dark past of the world - it was destroyed by a nuclear cataclysm that tipped the world's axis and caused the flight of elves (both shadow elves and "normal elves" - the history of the trees of life - and the hatred of the shadow elves for normal elves - is tied up in this.) Humans have long forgotten this, but for elves, this was only two or three generations ago... they remember very well and it also explains why they are so vehemently anti-technology.
Visitors from other worlds - The nuclear cataclysm that destroyed Blackmoor came from a crashed supertechnology alien ship. The ship's reactor exploded. What happened to the reactor? It was converted to a source of magical energy by the immortals and now sits beneath the surface of Glantri. I already mentioned the Alphatian mages... who were destroyed by a schism in their own ranks.
Lost cultures - The Nithians, similar to Egyptian culture but destroyed (or at least banished) by the immortals.
I could go on and on, but hopefully the point has been made. This was a gorgeous world, with beautiful history and rich diversity.
I personally didn't care for the "Hollow World" concept, but suffice to say that adds even more richness to the world.
Enter 2e and the transition to "Mystara" and what do we have?
Well, first and foremost, we have "historical creep" - one of the things I absolutely loathed about the FR was that they had to keep updating the world to keep up with the novels. Give me a world with a history, and let ME do the future, not you.
Follow that up with "massive change" - well, we have to "shake things up" to explain all the rules mechanic changes associated with the transition to a new edition. The shadow elves blast out the "regular" elves from their home and the quintessential elven forest begins to fall into decay and death. Now there is NO central elven culture. This was especially embittering to me since I had finally found an elven culture I could enjoy and embrace. Then find a way to "force" clerics back into Glantri - no problem, we'll just introduce a "day of trouble" where magic doesn't work, followed by a plague, forcing Glantri to accept clerics in order to survive. Take hope away from the humanoid races by "rewriting history" such that all of their great leaders were actually deformed shadow elves. In other words, generally turn the shadow elves into the true "movers and shakers" of the world - because people think shadow elves are cool. BLEH! Shadow elves WERE cool - but it was because of their culture and history, not because they were "dark elves."
In other words, spend fifteen years crafting a diverse, interesting world, then spend six months destroying everything you have created.
Focus on the Savage Coast and focus on radiation poisioning. Focus on Karameikos AFTER it kicks out its classic villains (Bargle the Infamous and the Black Eagle Baron von Hendricks). Focus on a Kingdom of Magic that can't rely on magic any more and has to admit clerics. But don't focus on the dozen other cultures that truly made the world what it was - a culturally diverse place where you had fascinating intrigue and interaction.
Ugh. Give me the Boxed Sets (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, et al). Give me the Gazetteers. Give me the B-series, X-series, CM-series, M-series, IM-series, AC-series, and DA-series.
Give me cultures that lived and breathed, not reams of stats (the almanacs are nice for creating realistic economies, I'll grant you that, though). Don't give me "Realms lite" where drow - er - shadow elves are the dominant force. Don't give me "Realms lite" where changes are made to CULTURES to reflect changes in the RULES WE USE TO MODEL THE WORLD (these are two very separate things and you should change the RULES to reflect the CULTURE, not the other way around).
Don't give me "historical creep" - if you say, "today is 1000 AD - start your campaign here" in a product, I damn well better not see anything for "this is what will happen in 1001 or 1010 AD." If you want to add more details about what happened in 800 AD or 500 AD or even 999 AD, fine. But LEAVE THE FUTURE OUT OF IT! I'm the DM, let me and my PCs determine the future of a world.
This is fast becoming a rant, so I'll stop. Suffice it to say that Mystara murdered the Known World in the same way the Time of Troubles ruined the Realms (it was possibly worse). Could I have used a Conversion Booklet to tell me how a "Halfling Master" converts to a "Halfling Fighter/Ranger?" Sure. That's rules - tell me how to adjust my model to fit the new system. Please. But DON'T go changing the cultures just because somebody thought up a new rule.
A campaign world itself (the history, people, cultures, and events) never "needs fixing" to accomodate a new rule. TSR/WotC has violated this principle with the Realms and even more egregiously with the Known World. Note that they seem to have done Greyhawk correctly - as far as I can tell, the people, places, and cultures of Greyhawk have NOT been revised every time a new ruleset came out - Greyhawk itself has remained mostly static.
Remember the funny threads about Realms citizens telling us "sales of spikes in the Realms are down, but those who put their money into Boots of Striding and Springing are seeing major returns"?
Changes in the rules should be *completely transparent* to the denizens of a campaign world. Sadly, they have not been. THAT is why I can't stand "Mystara" - or the Realms, for that matter. They violate this simple idea - and they didn't have to.
--The Sigil
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