Feat bonus stacking question

[DracoSuave]

True. That's a problem. However, it may have been done that way to even out the fact that Plate already provides a higher AC?

I think it has to do more with the fact that paladins don't need to be as mobile as fighters do, so they get to have the best armor.

Personally, I think it ought to be. Those with Plate are the ones who want the attention on them. That doesn't mean they always have the attention, but the two classes with easy access to Plate (Paladin and Fighter) can both mark. I'd feel pretty gyp'd if I was a shield/sword Fighter with Plate who spent 3 feats to beef myself up defensively only to be at the same AC as a Rogue or Ranger who used zero feats and... well... aren't Defenders.

Funny, if the Rogue and Ranger have good defenses that makes your job as a Defender easier, not harder. Hell, the main tool in every defender's arsenal is improving everyone's defenses -but you- by 2. If they come higher by default, that's even better for you.

All that said, when 4e was announced, I was hoping to see armor as DR in 4e, a la Iron Heroes. However, I know that a straight-forward, static, "hit-or-miss" AC makes things a bit faster and allows combat to run smoother. Still... would have been interesting to see how that'd have worked.

A lot of Defenders have damage reduction in different forms tho, that others do not. It's all balanced out, really.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

True. That's a problem. However, it may have been done that way to even out the fact that Plate already provides a higher AC? Not sure what the thinking was there.

Yes, this has always annoyed me too. Also, Plate providing a Higher AC isn't much of a justification. Scale and Plate are one point apart, one point, yet with Scale Spec you get +14AC and no penalties and with Plate you get +15AC and -2 check and -1AC. That's with PHB armor, but the Adventurer's Vault items mitigate this somewhat. High level Scale and Plate have the same AC, but Plate does get Resist 5 all for Tarrasque Plate. Although, that comes at a cost of it only being +12AC armor, or +13AC with armor spec. So you're sacrificing 2AC points to be at the same AC as similar level Scale armor, and you get a -2 check and a -1 to speed.

The additional kick in the pants is that Scale and Plate require different abilities. If you're going for a heavy CON Defender, you're kinda screwed, because Scale requires DEX of 15, whereas Plate requires CON of 15. So if you wanted to go Scale Spec to get rid of your penalties, you can't, unless you sacrifice some of your CON and/or WIS.

 

[Rafe]

Hell, the main tool in every defender's arsenal is improving everyone's defenses -but you- by 2. If they come higher by default, that's even better for you.

You mean via the mark mechanic? That's true, but it also means that if you have an AC that's only 1 or 2 points higher than a Rogue, Ranger, etc., you're likely to take a phenomenal beating from those whose attentions you're ensuring.

 

[Stalker0]

4e has made pushing any giving area a bit harder. If you want to go ultimate AC, it costs you a pretty penny.

Plate users can always have more AC than scale users, but it costs them more.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, this has always annoyed me too. Also, Plate providing a Higher AC isn't much of a justification. Scale and Plate are one point apart, one point, yet with Scale Spec you get +14AC and no penalties and with Plate you get +15AC and -2 check and -1AC. That's with PHB armor, but the Adventurer's Vault items mitigate this somewhat. High level Scale and Plate have the same AC, but Plate does get Resist 5 all for Tarrasque Plate. Although, that comes at a cost of it only being +12AC armor, or +13AC with armor spec. So you're sacrificing 2AC points to be at the same AC as similar level Scale armor, and you get a -2 check and a -1 to speed.

The additional kick in the pants is that Scale and Plate require different abilities. If you're going for a heavy CON Defender, you're kinda screwed, because Scale requires DEX of 15, whereas Plate requires CON of 15. So if you wanted to go Scale Spec to get rid of your penalties, you can't, unless you sacrifice some of your CON and/or WIS.

But you're comparing different tools for different jobs.

Alright.

Plate armor and Scale armor are for two different character classes.

Plate armor is not what your fighter is wearing by default. So stop glamming onto it and thinking it is what all fighters want. It isn't. It isn't -made- for fighters. This is an artifact of third edition creeping in there. Abandon it.

Paladins -are- the high AC class. They also have ranged powers as well as a ranged mark so they don't need to be mobile to operate. They don't go to the enemy all the time; sometimes they just bring the enemy to them, as their mark is -designed- to work that way. So Paladins can suck the movement penalty and the penalty to skills that they don't use so often (relating to mobility, see the pattern) and they can behave, instead, like a divine champion.

Fighters have to be more mobile. They have to go to the enemies, or use the rare power that brings enemies to them to be at their most effective. A fighter's mark on a non-adjacent enemy is just a mark and nothing more. Only adjacency makes the fighter's mark a threat. They -have to be more moble- and that's why they don't go all the way up to Plate Armor.

Beyond that, there's two builds of each, in terms of defenses: With or without a shield.

Fighters with a shield can choose: Armor specialization, or Shield specialization. Do they want to have no penalties to their mobility and skills, or +1 to Reflexes? They get a choice.

Paladins with a shield don't have as good a choice: Shield spec is clearly optimal. But that's okay, because Paladins can -still- get that additional point of AC despite the requirements of Plate Spec. They don't need mobility or skill ups, so why worry? Plus, they're ahead of the Fighter anyways, so -shouldn't- have 'moar' made easily available.

Without a shield, each has less of a choice, but then you're not a defensive build anyways, so AC isn't your primary concern. If it were, you'd have a shield, obviously.

What you're bumping your heads against is the fact that you're trying to stick an armor-type onto Fighters that isn't made for them. It's another class's tool. Why -would- it be better for Fighters?

That's like wondering why there's little healing Scale, or mobility based Chain. Wrong class. Wrong tools.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

But you're comparing different tools for different jobs.

Alright.

Plate armor and Scale armor are for two different character classes.

Plate armor is not what your fighter is wearing by default. So stop glamming onto it and thinking it is what all fighters want. It isn't. It isn't -made- for fighters. This is an artifact of third edition creeping in there. Abandon it.

I never played 3.x, so that's not where this is coming from.

Fighters have to be more mobile. They have to go to the enemies, or use the rare power that brings enemies to them to be at their most effective. A fighter's mark on a non-adjacent enemy is just a mark and nothing more. Only adjacency makes the fighter's mark a threat. They -have to be more moble- and that's why they don't go all the way up to Plate Armor.

I get that too. The problem I have is that out of the heavy armors, you can only get specialization with one without pumping DEX, and that's Plate. So unless you're going for a Heavy Blade Fighter, you're kinda screwed. You're either concentrating on WIS, which has no synergy with the Armor Spec feats, or CON, which limits you to Plate or Hide (which would suck without DEX...). I just find this rather frustrating since it makes it very difficult to juggle the stats for AC.

Personally, I would be much happier if I could get Scale Spec with my CON. Especially since I would prefer to just get an Armor Spec feat and then pick up Lightning Reflexes to increase my REF defense, rather than get Shield Spec.[/quote]