D&D 5E (2024) Feat Chains are Incompatible with Easy CharGen + 1st Lev Feats

[Mistwell]

Sure, but there were well over a thousand feats in 3e. There's a lot of middle ground for many more feats than we have, and far less than 14 or 15 hundred of them. 5e has what, 80-100?

Agreed. I am not saying "we need fewer feats." I am saying that feat chains, which serve to reduce choice later on for a PC, doesn't serve that goal well. I am saying we probably need for the prerequisite to be PC level, and not a prior feat plus a PC level.

 

[MoutonRustique(Real)]

After thinking about it for a couple days, I don't really want baked in feats. I'd much rather them be optional.

For myself, I'd rather have them be optional as well - without any 'compensatory' benefit.

i.e. no ASI or feat - just Feat or No Feat, but with an important addition : comprehensive advice on the DM side on what a Feat-available game entails with regards to game management. Something along the lines of : 'If you are using Feats in your game, it is probably safe to treat your group as having one more member when planning things out.'

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Agreed. I am not saying "we need fewer feats." I am saying that feat chains, which serve to reduce choice later on for a PC, doesn't serve that goal well. I am saying we probably need for the prerequisite to be PC level, and not a prior feat plus a PC level.

This makes sense.

That way you can have Feats that fit naturally together, where you might well want a specific Feat from L1 to "go with" an L4 feat, but where it's not hard-required, and the L4 is useful even without the L1 Feat.

 

[Maxperson]

Agreed. I am not saying "we need fewer feats." I am saying that feat chains, which serve to reduce choice later on for a PC, doesn't serve that goal well. I am saying we probably need for the prerequisite to be PC level, and not a prior feat plus a PC level.

I'm okay either way. I doubt there would be many chains, and like someone mentioned earlier, they would probably only be 2 feats long. Having it limited to level, though, works as well.

One thing they could do with feat chains is to make them automatic. Pick a 4th level feat and it advances in strength at 8th level, rather than costing a second feat. It could be a more power version of the abilities granted at 4th level, or the addition of another ability to the 4th level feat at 8th level.

 

[MoutonRustique(Real)]

This makes sense.

That way you can have Feats that fit naturally together, where you might well want a specific Feat from L1 to "go with" an L4 feat, but where it's not hard-required, and the L4 is useful even without the L1 Feat.

As a completely random example :
L1 feat : when you attack a prone opponent, you can add 1d6 something to something
L4 feat : when you strike for 10 or more hp, you can knock the foe prone unless it save against...

 

[MarkB]

Of course if the feat chains start at 4th level, then most people will never use them. Something like 77% of of PCs don't go past level 7.

Unless they change up the frequency at which feats are granted.

 

[TheSword]

The new UA playtesting the upcoming D&D revisions for 2024 introduce 1st level feats, which are intended per the designers to:

1) Make it easy on beginners to pick a feat without being overwhelmed by the number of choices.

As stated by Crawford, “Feat selection should not be overwhelming, and one way to do that is to break feats up into smaller groups, like with levels. If something tells you to go pick a first level feat, then that tells you right away I can ignore all the feats on this book that are 4th level, or 20th level, or any other level of feats. Instead you can focus on just the 1st level feats.”

However,

2) Feat Chains increase the incentive to be overwhelmed by the number of choices. Where one more powerful feat requires that you already have a prior lesser fear, you will have an incentive to know all the higher level feat prerequisite lower level feats out of fear you will lock out options you might way at higher levels with your choice. You essentially need to plan out much of your adventuring career from character creation if higher level feats have prerequisites impacted by your 1st level feat.

Finally,

3) A solution to this dilemma of allowing you to swap out your 1st level feat at higher levels is incompatible with the notion that your 1st level feat is part of your culture, which is represented by your background. Here Crawford emphasizes repeatedly that the 1st level feat choice is something you've been doing for years, and is tied to who you were before you took up adventuring. This feat, more than any other feat in your adventuring career, is tied closely to your culture. It would make no sense that you suddenly "forgot" your culture at a higher level so you could pick up a new ability which is literally something you just learned. Nor would you want to create a mechanics incentive to ignore your culture.

I'm therefore concluding from this that feat chains won't work, or won't work well, with the policy incentives of character generation being easy and not overwhelming for beginners and 1st level feats being part of your culture.

The best solution I can think of is to eliminate feat chains. Let the only prerequisite be level.

What do you think about these concepts? Do you think feat chains can work well with the goals of non-overwhelming character generation for beginners and 1st level feats being part of your characters culture?

Need and want are two totally different things.

A new player Needs to gain sufficient mastery of the rules to be able to sit at a table and play. They may want to have a particularly efficient character but they don’t need it to play and they can balance how much they want efficiency with how much time they can invest in learning the game (not a lot in a many cases)

This reminds me of the excel spreadsheet used to check through the 1500 feats you could chose from in a Pathfinder 1e Campaign. I still have nightmares about taking a new group through creating a character in that system.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I think it should work better. I don't expect Feat Chains to have more than one step.

 

[Minigiant]

I've wanted feat trees ever since I played Diablo II.

View attachment 258701

Stupid Diablo 2 forced you to waste skill points on prereqs.

Then they'd nerf your build and MAKE YOU START OVER!

Yes, I played Necro.

 

[CleverNickName]

Stupid Diablo 2 forced you to waste skill points on prereqs.

Then they'd nerf your build and MAKE YOU START OFF.

Yes, I played Necro.

Elemental Druid for me. Not the most powerful, but certainly one of the most fun!